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In this episode of ‘all about business’, James Reed is joined by Profit with Purpose Founder Isabel Kelly, where they discuss all things ESG. The pair explore how you can meet your social and environmental goals while remaining profitable, and how you can develop an authentic strategy that goes hand in hand with your brand
00:57 introducing Isabel Kelly and Profit With Purpose
02:12 the origin story of Profit With Purpose
03:03 integrating social impact in business
06:42 defining authentic purpose
09:02 challenges and resistance in purpose-driven business
13:45 navigating ESG legislation and reporting
24:57 the role of B Corps in purpose-driven business
31:56 airlines and vaccine financing
32:53 promoting ESG in the workplace
33:33 Salesforce's environmental journey
35:26 challenges and controversies in ESG
37:36 purpose-driven business strategies
39:50 becoming a B Corp
42:12 consulting for ESG and purpose
48:30 diversity and inclusion in boards
52:07 metrics and reporting for ESG
55:58 final thoughts and future goals
About Isabel
Isabel is the Founder of Profit with Purpose, a consultancy firm that works with companies to create and embed social impact strategies into businesses and brands. Isabel is a non-executive director at TPXimpact, an AIM-listed tech company where she Chairs the ESG Committee. She is also a member of the board at The Big Give and is a social impact careers advisor for MBA students at the Said Business School, Oxford University.
Follow Isabel Kelly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelkelly-pwp-esgx/
Check out Profit with Purpose: https://profitwithpurpose.co.uk/
Explore the UN’s Sustainable Development Goals: https://sdgs.un.org/goals
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
[00:00:00] Isabel: This whole conversation has shifted from corporate social responsibility, which was all about how much you cared, it's moved to compliance. You can huff and puff about it and say I don't think this is right or I don't believe in climate change. It's like paying your taxes, you no longer have to care, you have to comply.
[00:00:16] James: This is a new regime in a way that's going to be around for a long time.
[00:00:19] Isabel: Totally.
[00:00:20] James: So it's better to embrace it and get a grip of it and make it work for you. ESG three letters, every company is trying to get their heads around, but with new legislation, speeding up the need for new strategies, how can you make sure your organization is sustainable without sacrificing your bottom line?
[00:00:36] Isabel: Many companies have approached CSR, Corporate Responsibility, ESG, from a inconvenience of how do we fill this form in just to get away with it. I consulted with Sage, with Gucci, helping them to think about how they embed social impact into the core of what they do and how that drives benefit for their business, their people and their customers.
[00:00:57] James: Joining me today on All About Business is [00:01:00] Isabel Kelly. Isabel is the founder of Profit With Purpose, which helps organizations create meaningful brand impact. So you can take this purpose thing quite a long way though, can't you? Beyond your normal day to day business.
[00:01:13] Isabel: You can save money. You can hire people more easily.
You can deliver cost savings to your clients.
[00:01:19] James: You help companies to find their authentic purpose. How do you do that? What should you be thinking about if you're in an organization?
Welcome to all about business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies masterminded investment models, built a business empire, their leaders in their field. And they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
So Isabel, thanks so much for [00:02:00] coming to see me today. You're the founder of Profit With Purpose. And you act as a consultancy helping companies surface and action their purpose. What made you start this organization? Why did you choose this line of work? Tell me the sort of origin story, if you like.
[00:02:20] Isabel: Yeah, I mean, I think it was a long time And I have to look back in sort of retrospect to see how I got where I am now and the work that I do, but it's a balance of the work that I've done in my life.
So I started working at Amnesty International. I worked there for 11 years. I then went to work at Salesforce, so, you know, both multi billion dollar company. Now it was a startup then when I joined and, uh, I had the opportunity to run the Salesforce foundation internationally for, uh, 12 years and actually what I do now [00:03:00] brings those two things together.
So. I thought when I left Amnesty and joined Salesforce that companies were ready to start thinking about human rights. I was way off. It was a long way off, but what Salesforce were doing was integrating social impact and now environmental impact. Into the core of what they were doing. And I had the opportunity to be the first person to do that, um, internationally at Salesforce.
And I learned how does business approach social issues? How can it use its resources to address those issues and how can it engage its people? But then also what does that do for the company? How does that benefit the company in terms of reputation, And in terms of goodwill, and then people wanting to buy things from you.
Um, and so bringing all of that together, I thought profit with purpose was that the time was right [00:04:00] that other companies might want to learn from Salesforce have had both as a company selling software, but also as a company known for its great treatment of people. And so, um, I then started consulting. I consulted with Sage, with Gucci, helping them to think about how they embed social impact into the core of what they do and how that drives benefit for their business, their people, and their customers.
[00:04:30] James: There's a, there's a sense, I think, you know, every company has a purpose. They, they might not know it, they might not give them voice to it, they might not have, um, you know, made it clear to their customers what it is. But some of them could be acting on essentially some bad purpose. Yeah, it's a really good point.
Or it might just sort of make that
[00:04:49] Isabel: up. Yes, it's a really good point. And actually, that sort of In the world that I work in, the terminology keeps shifting. So for a while, people were talking about purpose. [00:05:00] as meaning social and environmental activity. Um, people have talked about sustainability. We've had CSR corporate social responsibility in the past.
We now have ESG environmental social governance. Purpose for me kind of sits above that as the, as you say, it's a company's core objective. It may not Include anything to do with anything other than making profit for the company and shareholders or selling a thing. Increasingly companies are, they're kind of looking back at perhaps if they're an older company, what their founding purpose was, what their CEO's founding purpose was, or what their founders purpose was.
And quite often that is something beyond selling a thing or making money or maximizing profit. They set out to fix something, to address something, to deliver something that people of the world needs. So some [00:06:00] companies have been looking back and thinking, what is our purpose? And is it broader than how we've defined it recently, which is to make money or sell something?
Newer companies when they're getting started are thinking purpose first, you know, next generation of entrepreneurs are thinking, how do we fix? Environmental or social problems through the means of business. So then more naturally bringing that in at the beginning, but for many companies, it's just looking at your business through a different lens and then reapplying that it makes you a more modern business and actually often makes you a more sustainable business.
[00:06:42] James: So the word authenticity is coming to mind for me. I mean, that's often used in this space. I mean, you help, I believe, companies to sort of find their authentic purpose. I mean, how do you do that? And what's it mean really? What, how do you differentiate a company that's authentic from one that isn't, or is it just obvious?
[00:06:59] Isabel: Yeah. [00:07:00] Um, So as someone asked me a few years ago, like, what do you actually sell to a company? And I did say authenticity. I think it's, um, so my business partner, Joe comes from an academic environmental background. I come from a human rights background. We both see that we can help businesses to address those world issues.
We're coming from that point of view, not activist or campaigning, but we really have a clear idea about what we want, what we want to see in the world. And many companies have approached CSR. Corporate responsibility, ESG from a kind of inconvenience, a box ticking. How do we fill this form in just to get away with it?
You know, how do we satisfy our employees requests for what we're doing for the wild? They're not doing it because they Care, or they see a benefit in it or an advantage for the company, [00:08:00] they're doing it to make something go away. If you work with us, we're going to challenge you. We probably start working with a client with a really good idea in our head of what the ultimate work that they should be doing, you know, is.
Um, but we don't reveal that until. Later on, you know, when we've moved to them, well, yeah, until we've moved along the journey, because if we start working with the company and we say, well, we think that your product is, you know, sucks and you should be totally doing it differently. That is not taking a company on a journey of discovery
[00:08:35] James: that's
[00:08:36] Isabel: going to alienate them.
Or if we say to them, we think that your main issue you should be focusing on is modern slavery and looking down your supply chain at slaves. And they've never thought about that. That's it. a journey too far. So we start with asking them what they're already doing, what their ambition is, um, you know, what obstacles they might find or what they've observed in their supply chain, in [00:09:00] their company, what they want to address.
[00:09:02] James: So sometimes I imagine when these, when you're making the case for these changes or for organizations to be more purposeful, you have potentially opposition in companies or detractors. People who say, what's the point, or I've seen it all before and it's just the latest fad, that sort of thing. What do you say to them or how do you deal with them?
[00:09:24] Isabel: Yeah, so we quite enjoy working with them because they challenge us and they make whatever we're going to do more robust in a way. It has to stand up to that level of scrutiny. We find that in larger companies often, um, senior management was middle management. Are really resistant because this just seems like another thing that they've got to do that.
They're not being given time or credit for, um, if it's back in the days when people used to go out to [00:10:00] volunteer, the last thing a sales manager wants to see is all of his sales team out of the office volunteering. You have to really work with those people to help them understand the value of it, but it also helps if you include in their, um, recognition reward, you know, performance reviews that this is something which is important to the company as important as the revenue.
But if you've got an inconsistent message or reward system, where the only thing that you're rewarded for is, um, bringing in the revenue. But you're also tasked to do these other things, which are the purpose things, you know, which people are going to do. So that's something else that we often talk about is helping people to think about how you're going to recognize and reward that activity, which is the purpose activity, not the profit activity.
[00:10:55] James: But do you find that you get sort of entrenched [00:11:00] resistance to these changes? Sometimes
[00:11:01] Isabel: you do. What do you do
[00:11:02] James: then?
[00:11:02] Isabel: Yeah, um, I think We talk to them and try and understand where that's coming from and sometimes it's, you know, it can be an ideological resistance, you know, people that don't believe in climate change or, you know, people that don't think that the role of companies is to have any role in society or, um, I was talking about salesforce.
So they have some investors now. That have published a letter, one of them that said, your job is not to use your company as a platform for social change as you're registered in Delaware. Your only responsibility is to maximize profit for shareholders. That is in fact true, but if you're delivering for what the shareholders need, um, there's no harm in also for delivering what the world needs.
It's getting that balance. But [00:12:00] if you're registered.
[00:12:01] James: As we are in the uk, you have to comply with the uk
[00:12:04] Isabel: With the laws. Yeah. And in which cover
[00:12:06] James: these bases actually they cover,
[00:12:08] Isabel: yes, they do. Stakeholders other than shareholders and which include community and, and the environment.
[00:12:15] James: And the
[00:12:16] Isabel: employees. And employees.
Yeah.
[00:12:17] James: So, in a way, it's more straightforward in the UK because
[00:12:22] Isabel: the arguments have been
[00:12:23] James: had at a national political
[00:12:25] Isabel: level, and those
[00:12:26] James: rules have been made, which means, really, you say to those people, we have to get on with it, we're here to help.
[00:12:33] Isabel: It's not
[00:12:34] James: that bad.
[00:12:35] Isabel: Yeah. And for some of them, we then sort of bring in the full force of the law.
It's like, you know, arguing about whether or not you want to pay tax. There isn't an argument there. And so this is whole, this whole conversation has shifted from the time of corporate social responsibility, which was all about how much you cared. It's moved to compliance. So we have a slide in our debt that says, you no longer have to care.
You have to comply, [00:13:00] which then of course sends everyone off saying, Oh, well, of course. The, the law is a massive lever for pushing along the companies that are reluctant or the people that are detractors. And
[00:13:14] James: what I'm hearing from you is this is a new regime in a way that's going to be around for a long time.
So it's better to embrace it, get a grip of it and make it work for you.
[00:13:24] Isabel: Yeah. Rather
[00:13:25] James: than still discuss whether there's any
[00:13:26] Isabel: point in it really, because it's not
[00:13:28] James: going to change. It's going to be
[00:13:30] Isabel: there. Yeah.
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You mentioned ESG. Yeah. Environment, social governance is a big thing at the moment. Yeah. Um. How should companies think about that? Because I understand you're, you sort of argue that they should settle on one of those more than all [00:14:00] three. Is that right?
[00:14:01] Isabel: Um, no, I think you need to, well, definitely company, all companies need to be doing governance.
[00:14:06] James: Yeah, so in terms of your purpose though, what is it good to emphasize one over the others or do you think you should do all three?
[00:14:16] Isabel: Yeah, I mean, so the term ESG is what's being used increasingly. For the legislation and the regulatory requirements that are coming through. So I think this is where there's a difference between purpose, which is perhaps more aspirational, more ambitious, more human.
And ESG rep applies to a lot of the legislation. So there's a lot of environmental legislation that's been coming through for the last few years. There's a big new piece of legislation called the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive coming from. The EU, which will apply to some, um, UK companies, which also includes social impact and [00:15:00] human rights.
So those are things that are increasingly becoming the law. You have to report on those things, your carbon footprint, uh, your scopes, one, two, and three, your reduction plan. How you're treating people in your supply chain. So those are reporting requirements, which is different to what your ambition is, and what's going to inspire the people in your company, that you are authentically thinking about communities and, um, you know, improving the world that we work in.
So that's what we would say is like, when you're figuring out your purpose, um, You may already have your company purpose, but then adding to it with your social and environmental purpose. Where have you got something that is really unique? Where can you apply resources to a particular social or environmental issue where you can't?
Uniquely your company or your industry sector can really make a difference. [00:16:00] And one of the things we do, um, I don't know if you're familiar with the UN sustainable development goals. We it's a really brilliant exercise. So most business leaders are not thinking about social and environmental impact every day, like I do.
Um, and so we show the sustainable development goals to boards and. Leaders, you know, C suite, and we just asked them to look at the colored tiles, which say no hunger, no poverty, good education, um, sustainable cities and ask them to point. And you just see this big wave of relief come over people's faces because they've got some parameters there.
Cause often if you ask people what's relevant or salient social or environmental issues in your business, people don't know. It's not when you
[00:16:51] James: say you ask them to point, what do you mean
[00:16:52] Isabel: the STGs have that set of colored kind of tiles.
[00:16:56] James: Yeah, well, they pick one of them. We just say
[00:16:58] Isabel: point at the ones that [00:17:00] you think are relevant to your business, where you personally think you can make a difference or where you have a personal interest.
Um, and we do it as a board exercise or as a C suite exercise. And really often people in the same company choose the same ones. So say you've got, um, you know, you're a ship broker, where can you have the biggest influence? It's probably on oceans, looking at new fuels for shipping, um, and your supply chain.
So choosing sustainable development goals that are relevant to your business, probably the thing, if you're a food. Manufacturer, no hunger would perhaps be one where you think that you can really have a, an influence and a lot of technology companies, like I was saying, are thinking about the jobs of the future.
[00:17:54] James: So how many of these UN goals are there?
[00:17:56] Isabel: There are 17.
[00:17:58] James: So we should all have a look at them, shouldn't we? [00:18:00] No, I don't want to ask you to recite them, but I am thinking I should go and have a look at them and I think other people listening might think, well, I'd quite like to have a look at them. Maybe point my finger at some.
[00:18:07] Isabel: It's a really good place to start. It's an easy and helpful
[00:18:09] James: exercise
[00:18:11] Isabel: that you
[00:18:11] James: can do at home or in the office or whenever you like.
[00:18:13] Isabel: Totally, because I realized that, um, asking business leaders, Who are not thinking about these things every day. What do you care about? What's relevant to your company? And people really don't know what the answer is.
Is it education? Is it elephants? You know, how do we, what are my parameters? So it provides some really good parameters.
[00:18:35] James: But if you take someone through that scenario, that exercise, they might point at several of these. There are 17. Is that reconcilable? Or do you then have to decide as a group, are we going to focus on elephants or are we going to focus on education?
[00:18:47] Isabel: So that's then part of the exercise that we do with the company, thinking through, since then sort of spreading that out across the company for other input, um, some of those you [00:19:00] might move forward to be your purpose, others. You might move into sort of business as usual. So for example, if you've chosen gender equality, most of the actions that you need to do around that are in the core of your company.
So how your HR. Team is sort of thinking about recruitment, promotion, gender pay gap, um, reporting on salaries, a lot of those are business as usual things. So it might be that you choose that that sits at a company level rather than a kind of the outward articulation of your ambition for your company.
And there'll be others that rise to the top, um, and that become. You're, you know, you're kind of rallying cry for your employees and your, um, external stakeholders that they really associate your company with doing that thing.
[00:19:54] James: So that's, that feels quite different to the sort of ESG requirement [00:20:00] required by law.
Um, and you mentioned earlier that some people feel this is a burden. That's been imposed on them. Which I mean, in a sense it is. Yeah. Um, and they sort of tick the boxes, but I mean, is there a better way for them to do that? I mean, should they think about it a bit more positively and creatively? Yeah, yeah, sure.
We've gotta do this, but there is some upside here if we get it right. Yeah. There. So how there's a huge
[00:20:23] Isabel: amount of upside. What
[00:20:24] James: is that? 'cause it can seem daunting when you
[00:20:26] Isabel: get it. It can seem really daunting, but actually. Early on in those conversations, when we, we work with a framework, which helps companies think about, you know, the waterfall from their purpose through their sustainable development goals, through the, their activities, the things that they're currently doing.
Through to reporting and metrics. That's sort of our framework. When you start talking to a company and trying to, you know, assemble what they're already doing, they're probably already doing quite a lot of things. [00:21:00] They're just not putting it in that framework and not calling it. ESG. Um, and so for many companies, that's a moment of relief, it's like, Oh, phew, you know, we're actually not starting from scratch where we thought we were starting from.
And then we've also had it said when companies, you know, look at the framework and they go, Oh, it's those things we didn't know. Why would you know what is incorporated in ESG, you know, if you talk to your average person in the street, what, what does corporate governance mean? They're not going to know that either.
Um, and so, yeah, there's some relief and then there's some rationalization. And then you kind of look at what you need to start reporting against and what The frameworks that you need to use. So probably not start with the reporting, start with the ambition and then figure out the activities that you need to do.
And then think about, [00:22:00] well, what is it that we need to report? And have we got that data?
[00:22:03] James: There is pushback here, isn't it? It's pushback. Yeah. This is unnecessary. It's getting in the way of looking after our customers.
[00:22:09] Isabel: Yeah. I don't know.
[00:22:10] James: Distracting management time. I
[00:22:12] Isabel: was talking to someone the other day and I was saying, it's kind of like we're in Process now with the legislation where there are all these different frameworks and three letter acronyms, and that is a burden, but it's a new system of accounting and actually, how long did the account for, you know, finance accounting system take to emerge?
I'm sure it wasn't perfect the first time it was done.
[00:22:35] James: I see. So you're saying this is a new system. It's bedding in. It's going to be there for ages. So get your head around it.
[00:22:41] Isabel: Yeah. And there are huge advantages to it. Yeah. You can save money by, you know, you can work from a more environmentally friendly office.
It's very appealing to younger people coming into the workplace, as well as many older people, um, [00:23:00] that, you know, they want to work for a company that matches their own values. So you can hire people more easily. Um, yeah, you can deliver cost savings to your clients. If you're a tech company. And you're delivering climate smart solutions that can save them money.
If you're looking down your supply chain and also you're looking ahead of what people really want. If you're a packaging company, there's new legislation coming in that bans certain types of packaging. There's no point in carrying on making the same packaging that you were making if no one can buy that anymore.
So being ahead of that. Being ready, having your company ready for what change is coming, um, makes you a leaner sort of company. And there is, there's a guy who works at the London Business School called Yanis Yanu, who started to do that research on does this actually have a beneficial effect on your bottom line to be, um, sort of ESG compliant and [00:24:00] friendly.
It's also increasing.
[00:24:02] James: What's he found?
[00:24:03] Isabel: He's, uh, it looks positive. Get him on your podcast. I'm going to get him in the studio. I think you should. I think I
[00:24:10] James: should. I want to know the answer to this question. Yeah. He's the expert, not me. A lot of people would want to know the answer to this question. He's
[00:24:15] Isabel: definitely the guy.
[00:24:16] James: Yeah.
[00:24:17] Isabel: Well, I
[00:24:17] James: mean, it's interesting. You know, so, well, hopefully that is the case. It's well executed. It helps the company improve and prosper. Yeah.
[00:24:24] Isabel: Yes. And you'd look at, you'd It's kind of like a point of no, there's no point in resisting anymore. But what we're seeing is that whilst the legislation that's coming applies to larger companies, they're pushing it down their supply chain.
So even if you're a smaller company that doesn't have to respond to the legislation, you can no longer win contracts. You can no longer be in the supply chain of large companies that, that have to report on their ESG.
[00:24:53] James: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Isabel: So embrace it. So everyone should, everyone should embrace it. Okay.
[00:24:57] James: So, so we were talking about becoming [00:25:00] purpose driven profit with purpose.
Yeah. Um, some people think that to do that, the first step is to become a B Corp as it's called. Now you know about B Corps. I know this. Yeah. Could you just tell us what a B Corp is? And then whether it's necessary to become one to sort of embark on this journey. Sure.
[00:25:18] Isabel: So, um, BCOT is, uh, B stands for benefit corporation.
Um, and it was a, it's a form of company structure that was initially, um, invented in the U S. I guess early to mid 2000s, it's become a global movement and actually here in the UK, there are more B courts per capita per head of business than anywhere else in the world. So it's obviously caught on here. Um, you don't need to be a B court.
You can do the things. That, uh, are right for the environment, right for society, right for your business without getting [00:26:00] that certification. Some people find it a useful framework. So to become a B Corp, you go through a rigorous certification process across eight different areas, including environment, social, um, workers rights, you know, all kinds of areas.
Um, and then B Corp will certify you or not. And, you know, you
[00:26:24] James: have to
[00:26:25] Isabel: pay them.
[00:26:27] James: And literally an investment,
[00:26:29] Isabel: it literally is an investment. They give
[00:26:30] James: you a stamp of approval. You
[00:26:32] Isabel: get a stamp, you get to use that mark. You might've seen it on, I don't know, yeah. Popcorn and cook and would you recommend
[00:26:40] James: people did this?
Or it's one way, it's
[00:26:43] Isabel: one way. You kind of need to be doing the stuff that I've talked about already. You kind of need to know your purpose. You need to know. Um, what your carbon footprint is, you need to know how you're treating your workers and what your social impact could be in order to answer the questions, in order to [00:27:00] pass the certification.
So that's sort of like the cherry on the cake. You need not do that process. You can still carry on doing the things that you Choose to do to be a environmentally and socially conscious company without getting that. I think it's got increasing traction. There are some larger companies. So I sit on the board of TPX impact, which is one of only a handful of listed companies.
It's a technology company, um, that are a B Corp. And we know that it, the thing that kind of got us over the line was that it enshrined what we were already doing, but it was really attractive to our employees. Many of our employees really were attracted to work for a B Corp and we deliver quite a lot of that work through our client work as well.
We work with, uh, non profits and government.
[00:27:49] James: So it's a good way of attracting good stuff.
[00:27:51] Isabel: Yeah, really good way of attracting good staff and, um, values aligned clients. So working with [00:28:00] the UK government and non profits, it kind of shows that you're a company that shares there. Values,
[00:28:07] James: one of the downsides,
[00:28:10] Isabel: you can get into trouble if you don't do it, right?
[00:28:14] James: So you can lose
[00:28:18] Isabel: your vehicle certification. So there's one, um, I won't mention it, but, uh, a brewing company that had a, Um, were accused of not treating their employees very well. So that became fairly public. There's a publicity ad company, a publicity company that took on a, um, an oil company as a customer.
So they lost their certification.
[00:28:45] James: Oh, they couldn't have an oil company as a customer?
[00:28:47] Isabel: No. So not an oil company that. Is, uh, unrepentant oil company that's not
[00:28:52] James: addressing what they need to do. Yeah. It's within
[00:28:58] Isabel: the rules of e court. Yeah.
[00:28:59] James: [00:29:00] Okay. So the people you can't do business with. And
[00:29:02] Isabel: that's made very clear to you what the, what the, um, caveats are, what your client list could or should be.
[00:29:10] James: But you're saying as well that that's not necessary to become a purpose, authentic purpose driven company.
[00:29:15] Isabel: No, you can totally be an authentic purpose driven company without getting that stamp.
[00:29:20] James: But there are pitfalls for companies that are purpose driven that aren't B course as well, aren't there? Yes.
[00:29:27] Isabel: You know, to get it wrong. Yeah, getting it wrong can be reputationally quite damaging. What
[00:29:30] James: examples have you seen of that? How can things go wrong?
[00:29:33] Isabel: So, I mean, with all the new legislation. There's something called the EU taxonomy, which is the words that can be used around environmental, um, you know, substance.
So, there's a travel company that actually is recall, that put out an advert that I think said something like, You can, it's greener or it's more environmental [00:30:00] traveling with us. So the advertising standards authority say, okay, you've used that word, the
[00:30:05] James: word greener,
[00:30:06] Isabel: greener, whatever word it was. And that has a definition.
So can you show us the data that proves that your claim is true? And they couldn't. And I think it was because they hadn't included the, um, The footprint, the carbon footprint of the flight in the, in their calculation, which is quite an important part of the trip, so they had to pull that advert.
[00:30:32] James: That's a little embarrassing.
Did they lose their B course? They did not,
[00:30:35] Isabel: no. But it's just, it's a sign of what's happening. Should we get a
[00:30:40] James: yellow card first before we get a red one?
[00:30:42] Isabel: I don't know, maybe, probably, yeah, yeah. But
[00:30:44] James: it's obviously important, isn't it? If you, if you've got that status.
[00:30:47] Isabel: Yeah.
[00:30:48] James: Not to lose it or to, you know, because that's in itself, that's going to get more attention.
That's going to get more attention. Going to get more attention in a way than if you've got it in the first place. Yes,
[00:30:56] Isabel: exactly. There are some companies who've recently kind of said, oh, we were [00:31:00] offered it, but we turned it down.
[00:31:01] James: Have they? Yeah. Well, because they're concerned about that. I
[00:31:03] Isabel: think some of them, cause they were concerned about their client lists.
That they would have to stop working with certain clients. Yeah, it's all a balancing act. You know, that's the profit with purpose bit, but there are legitimate ways of making profit that don't perhaps meet the B Corp standards.
[00:31:21] James: So there are, you know, you can take this purpose thing quite a long way though.
Can't you? Beyond your normal database business. I think you would talk about an airline. To me earlier that
[00:31:31] Isabel: yes. Yeah. So that's a good example of pandemic.
[00:31:35] James: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:35] Isabel: I've sort of self interest that actually does good for the
[00:31:39] James: world. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:40] Isabel: So during the pandemic, I did a bit of work with the world health organization foundation, helping them find companies that would put money in to buy vaccines for the Rest of the world that didn't have them
[00:31:55] James: couldn't afford them,
[00:31:56] Isabel: couldn't afford them, weren't at the top of the list.
Yeah, [00:32:00] weren't manufacturing them. And so we thought around different industry sectors, you know, where are their companies with vested interests? Airlines. Of course, you know, they were struggling terribly during the pandemic. And so we actually received a lot of money to buy vaccines, um, from the airline industry and some of the industry bodies, because it helped them get their business back on track, back on its feet, getting people.
Traveling again, getting the world opened again. It was a really clearly aligned objective.
[00:32:37] James: That's interesting because you wouldn't immediately think an airline would be financing vaccines.
[00:32:43] Isabel: No, no.
[00:32:44] James: But I can see why because it did mean that the whole travel economy opened up. Sooner than it would have done.
Exactly. Without them. Yeah, yeah. Um, what, what should you be thinking about if you're sort of, In an [00:33:00] organization that you feel where the management aren't taking this as seriously, seriously as you'd like, you know, maybe, you know, you're an employee in a large company and you want them to think about it more and be more purpose driven and more focused on the environment or social issues.
How can you flag that or surface that as an agenda item in the. In a way that's likely to succeed rather than just be a nuisance.
[00:33:25] Isabel: Yeah. I was going to say first being just be a nuisance. I keep bringing it up
[00:33:30] James: in
[00:33:31] Isabel: many ways. Yeah. I just remember. So back in the day, really long time ago when I was at Salesforce, an employee stood up at a company meeting, um, an all company meeting and just asked the CEO, Mark Benioff, what are you doing about the environment?
And he said, I don't know, but that's now your job.
[00:33:54] James: No, that's a good answer.
[00:33:55] Isabel: So
[00:33:58] James: that person then went off. That
[00:33:59] Isabel: person [00:34:00] then went on to. So you've got a
[00:34:00] James: motivated activist. Yeah. And then cut with what we're going to do about that.
[00:34:04] Isabel: And I mean, often, I don't know if you think this, but often it's good to have the activists on the inside rather than on.
Sure, sure. And especially if they're
[00:34:12] James: motivated and energetic.
[00:34:13] Isabel: Yeah. They
[00:34:14] James: can do things.
[00:34:15] Isabel: Yeah. And so, I mean, that's what
[00:34:17] James: happened after that. So this person went off, that was their new job.
[00:34:20] Isabel: Yeah. So they figured out like it was really early. It's before we had all the frameworks and legislation that we have now, but I'd say, you know, now Salesforce has a really good, um, ESG strategy, a very good approach to that.
Um, and actually when I was still working there, The approach to the environment helped us when clients, so Greenpeace were coming, you know, becoming interested in being one of our nonprofit foundation clients. They asked us difficult questions about our data centers and their carbon footprint, because we had that person doing that job, we could answer them.
And, you know, then I think Greenpeace [00:35:00] helps us think about how it could even further improve the carbon footprint of his data centers. So it's sort of about being, not trying to push it away. But trying to bring it in, bring it on
[00:35:13] James: and use it in a way that, you know, can be very good for the business footprint is reduced.
Your costs are also reduced.
[00:35:21] Isabel: Your costs are reduced. Yes, it makes you more attractive to many employers. And I think, and you talked about, um, controversy and some of that controversy about ESG has been about ESG investing. Not so much about ESG being done in companies per se, you know, there are some places, workplaces where people feel it's gone too far.
So I think the, um, ESG sort of, uh, Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock has stopped using that term because he said it's become weaponized.
[00:35:53] James: ESG?
[00:35:54] Isabel: ESG as a term. So he stopped using that. Not doing the thing and [00:36:00] not applying that lens to the, their investment portfolio, but using that term because of its politicization in the U S particularly.
So, um, yeah,
[00:36:11] James: they do instead,
[00:36:13] Isabel: the kind of, it's much more new to, you know, it's much more quiet, but
[00:36:19] James: they don't apply it to their investments or they do.
[00:36:21] Isabel: Um, they, they don't anymore, I think in some corners, but you know, some of the years to investing was. It started off very badly where they'd got companies that they really weren't ESG worthy in a, in an investment portfolio.
Um, yes, but I think that for many us companies, they're just, they're just trying to keep things kind of vanilla of like, let's not put our head above the parapet and say that we're on a net zero pathway. Let's do the thing. We'll do the right thing. But we'll just not shout about it because it's not the [00:37:00] environment in which they can do it.
So here, the fact that we have legislation that says you have to report on this. Makes it a new, more neutral activity. You can huff and puff about it and say, I don't think this is right, or I don't believe in climate change, but it's just a thing that you have to do. It's like, you know, paying your taxes.
Companies may not like doing that. They may not want to do it, but it's just, it becomes a neutral activity.
[00:37:27] James: Yeah. But in that case, you know, if it's an activity, it's just a requirement that you have to meet certain obligations and report in a certain way. I mean, what I think you're talking about with purpose though is lifting it beyond that.
Yes, exactly. And doing something actually much more interesting.
[00:37:45] Isabel: Much more interesting, much more kind of flavorful, characterful, you know, which brings out the character of your company and. Your leadership and your CEO, and you know, you can make me talk about how you do that at Reed. Well, we have [00:38:00] a
[00:38:00] James: clear purpose at Reed, which is improving lives through work.
Just four words.
[00:38:04] Isabel: Yeah, and how you inspire people to be part of that.
[00:38:08] James: Well, I like it because it's, it's so simple and it's actionable by everybody, you know, every day someone, we can all do something that would improve someone's life in some small way.
[00:38:17] Isabel: It's
[00:38:18] James: just making them smile or laugh or give them a cup of tea.
I mean, we can all do something. And um, you know, I think that's a good message to share because, um, it's easy for us to embrace and do, but then it's also strategic because if it was a business investment that didn't do that. Um, I wouldn't want to pursue it. I wouldn't want to go, I'm not opposed to gambling, but I wouldn't want to run a gambling business.
Yeah. Because I don't think it improves lives. Yeah, exactly. So it might give fun to some people on a good day, but not on another. So, you know, so that for me isn't in that, in our sort of space. It's not to say I wouldn't, if a, if a gambling [00:39:00] company asked me to find them a new accountant, I would
[00:39:03] Isabel: Yeah.
[00:39:04] James: That's , that's no, because Yeah. People
[00:39:06] Isabel: have free will. Well,
[00:39:07] James: yeah, but I To work for a gambling or not, sort of b core thing about, yeah. So uncomfortable about people you can and can't do business with and, and every so many decisions being selected around. You lawfully operating in the UK and they want to be our customer, then that's okay with me.
[00:39:24] Isabel: Yeah. So I can tell you on the board, it was a robust conversation about, well, who is it that determines our client base? Um, for the company I'm talking about, you know, the client base is government and non profit. So it was a fairly, you know, not that difficult a decision. Um, but for many other companies that would be, yeah.
Yeah. It would be problematic. And so not every company can or should or want to be a B Corp, but they can. So you're talking about here, the company
[00:39:57] James: that's the B Corp has to be [00:40:00] selective about who they're. Yeah. That's a whole nother level, isn't it? Of, of, um, It's kind of political too, I think, you know, I like you, but not you.
[00:40:11] Isabel: So, yeah, yeah, I mean, in some ways it's kind of activist.
[00:40:16] James: Yeah, it is.
[00:40:17] Isabel: Yeah.
[00:40:17] James: And that's, that's a decision for, yeah, the shareholders ultimately, I suppose.
[00:40:21] Isabel: If it's a publicly listed company or the, yeah, the board or the owners, the CEO. Yeah,
[00:40:26] James: the owners feel that's what they want. Yeah. All well and good. Yeah,
[00:40:29] Isabel: exactly.
And I think in a, you know, non listed company, That's perhaps a, it's an easier pivot to make. You've got, you don't have to bring your shareholders along with you, but for a listed company, uh, we had to change our memorandum and articles, which we had to take to the AGM, um, you know, convince your shareholders had to vote on this was to
[00:40:52] James: become a B Corp.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's a serious, it was a majority.
[00:40:56] Isabel: Well, yeah, they, it, it was a
[00:40:58] James: majority. I imagine it was, was it a big one or was it [00:41:00] just scraped over? Do you
[00:41:01] Isabel: know what, I dunno. You dunno. Clearly,
[00:41:03] James: clearly it was a majority.
[00:41:05] Isabel: Yeah. That's very
[00:41:05] James: good.
[00:41:06] Isabel: Yeah. But I'm not sure that any, um, this is
[00:41:08] James: helpful for people listening to understand the sort of nuances of hitting Yeah.
Once what, what it involve exactly. Also how it's applied and things to think about, because I didn't necessarily know that.
[00:41:19] Isabel: No. And I think a lot of companies think, oh, we'll get that stamp. That's becoming a. You know, the B Court stamp becomes a, it's becoming quite more recognized. And, um, it took us three years.
[00:41:32] James: And there's a lot around workers rights, isn't there, as well, in the book? Yeah, so
[00:41:35] Isabel: employment, you know, how you employ people, um, uh, you know, salaries, gender pay, salaries, all sorts of things. But most of those things are already in UK corporate governance, UK legislation, and with the new legislation coming, it exists anyway.
You don't have to. [00:42:00] Use someone else's framework. That's sort of a badge of recognition of what you, it should be a badge of recognition of what you're doing anyway, and what you've embedded in your company.
[00:42:12] James: So if you're, if you're coming to me, me for the first time, and you're coming to be a consultant and profit with purpose, and you look at our business.
Well, how, how would you. Begin, um, what was your sort of approach be? I'm, I suppose I'm trying to get some free consulting for my business here, Isabelle. Sure. Give me a sort of starter for today. Yeah, I'll give
[00:42:35] Isabel: you the idea for free.
[00:42:37] James: So what would, how would
[00:42:38] Isabel: that work? So these days, I ask, what, why? Why are you asking me to consult with you about your ESG, if that's what you're calling it?
Because that is massively revealing of the drivers. So if you're a little company in a big company supply chain, [00:43:00] and they're asking you or sending you a four page questionnaire about your ESG work and you can't answer it, and that means you can't win their trust. work anymore. That is a really important driver.
If the, you know, whoever I'm speaking to says, because I have a passion for climate change, or I have a passion for human rights in our, our supply chain, that's a totally different starting point for the conversation. So it's kind of determines what your ambition is.
[00:43:30] James: Does it tend to be one or the other?
[00:43:32] Isabel: It really varies at the moment. It's people being driven by legislation,
[00:43:38] James: which is really interesting. Big customers are all asking me for these things and I need some help.
[00:43:43] Isabel: Yeah. Yeah. All right.
[00:43:44] James: So I need some help. What next? How are you going to help me?
[00:43:47] Isabel: Yeah. What's your ambition? I'd ask you, what is your ambition?
I want to keep my
[00:43:51] James: customers. Okay. I don't want to lose customers because they're asking me.
[00:43:54] Isabel: Employees? Yeah.
[00:43:56] James: Yeah. They're really important too. Yeah.
[00:43:58] Isabel: [00:44:00] Okay. Um, have you got a product or a service? It's service.
[00:44:06] James: So, but I'm thinking, you know, I'm selling to Tesco say, well, it could be a recruitment service or it could be Petit Poir Pied.
[00:44:13] Isabel: It makes a difference. There's a massive difference. So they come,
[00:44:17] James: but they're saying you need to comply with RESG. One might be more on the social side, one might be on the environment. But you then sort of look under the bonnet, do you and
[00:44:26] Isabel: have a really good and actually companies that we work with often really surprised that our lens of social and environmental impact, they think it kind of sits on the side.
It actually crosses. a huge amount of your business. So it's looking at how you're hiring people, looking at your, um, you know, culture, looking at how people are treated within your organization, looking at your gender parity, um, looking at your sort of training [00:45:00] programs, your hiring practice, all of that has those elements of ESG.
And then also some of those, um, tie into, um, Something which is adjacent to ESG, but not actually kind of in ESG, I think, which is your DEI work. So, are you promoting diversity, equity, inclusion? Are you promoting women? You know, have you got a gender pay gap? Are you recruiting people of colour, um, people who are neurodiverse?
You know, have you got The workforce, which is representative of the place in which you function, because that's your best bet for being a successful company these days.
[00:45:46] James: So you do all that. I mean, that could lead to a sort of a lot of suggestions. So what comes out? I mean, do you have a, do you end up presenting a big, thick?
[00:45:54] Isabel: Yeah. So, well, we have a framework. No, we definitely don't. Cause no board will read.
[00:45:59] James: [00:46:00] No, I'm wondering about that. Yeah. So
[00:46:02] Isabel: that's why we developed the framework that we use, which. If it really has to, it fits on one page, because we, so it's your purpose, including, so both your, um, business purpose and your environmental and social purpose, that might be one statement, that might be two.
It might be that you've got a very clearly branded existing purpose statement, like you've said about read yours can be applied actually to an environmental and social lens, some companies, you can't do that. So you kind of write a, you know, another purpose statement for what you want to achieve environmentally, socially, and then you look at, you know, put what your chosen STGs are, what's your focus?
Is it oceans? Is it elephants?
[00:46:56] James: STGs are the
[00:46:58] Isabel: sustainable development goals
[00:46:59] James: and a [00:47:00] lot of acronyms. I know
[00:47:01] Isabel: it's every three letter acronym that you can imagine.
[00:47:03] James: And
[00:47:06] Isabel: that's without going on the legislation, I'm getting that.
[00:47:12] James: All right.
[00:47:13] Isabel: Um, yeah, so, uh, look at your sustainable development goals. Which of those have you picked?
What's your focus? And then building those out, what are your environmental activities, your scope one, two and three, carbon footprint, your net zero plan, the things that you have to do in order to get there, your social impact. Have you looked at what the salient social impact issues are around you? What communities are you in?
Who are you hiring from? Are there more things that you could do to reach out into your communities, to engage in a positive way through offering employment, training? Or, you know, if you're working in a further flung place, you know, access to water, access [00:48:00] to healthcare, those kinds of things. Are there things that you can do for your communities?
Um, and then how are you looking at diversity and inclusion? What have you got? In place to ensure that you really are representing the communities that you work in and, and you're making the most of the talent that, you know, not just saying our doors are open, but reaching out to pull in the talent that may not be confident enough to come in.
And then on the governance side, there are elements like looking at the makeup of your board. Is your board all middle aged white men? That is quite a traditional board. Mine isn't. No, I wasn't asking specifically. It is your board, I'm just telling you as much. I'm
[00:48:48] James: supporting you on that one. So how could they be better prepared boards of the future for new issues?
Yeah, have
[00:48:54] Isabel: actual diversity. So.
[00:48:55] James: That's what you're saying.
[00:48:56] Isabel: I'm a middle aged white middle class woman. [00:49:00] Currently I'm diversity on a board. That's not right. So, I think that, you know, my personal, um, objective What are
[00:49:10] James: you saying? You're saying you're appointed just to make the board a bit more No,
[00:49:13] Isabel: I'm not there just to be diverse
[00:49:14] James: What do you mean you're diverse?
[00:49:16] Isabel: The fact that I represent diversity What,
[00:49:18] James: there's no one else?
[00:49:19] Isabel: Is not right. Like, I'm not very diverse. That's my point. Well, I
[00:49:22] James: don't know what very diverse means. I mean, we're all different, aren't we?
[00:49:25] Isabel: We are all different. We are all different, but Yeah,
[00:49:28] James: you think yeah,
[00:49:29] Isabel: if the board is mainly you
[00:49:30] James: on the board
[00:49:31] Isabel: No, but if the board is mainly middle class white men,
[00:49:35] James: and
[00:49:35] Isabel: then you bring in a middle class white woman
[00:49:37] James: Yeah, that's not bad.
You're not you're not being that adventurous. No far enough But if you're
[00:49:41] Isabel: bringing in you should be much more people from different ethnic backgrounds representative
[00:49:46] James: of the community representative
[00:49:47] Isabel: of the community, people, yeah, all kinds of diversities that haven't previously had access to a board.
And you'll
[00:49:54] James: make better decisions and you'll be faster to respond to situations that are new and [00:50:00] unexpected.
[00:50:00] Isabel: Totally. Or you won't be, you know, blindsided by them.
[00:50:03] James: Yeah, actually that's a, that's an important thing to emphasize because it's sometimes the things that blindside you, that sink you.
[00:50:11] Isabel: Yeah.
[00:50:12] James: It's not necessarily the day to day.
[00:50:14] Isabel: Yeah. I mean, who saw the pandemic coming
[00:50:17] James: and it was interesting how government struggled to respond to that.
[00:50:23] Isabel: Yeah. We
[00:50:23] James: didn't have enough scientists involved.
[00:50:25] Isabel: Probably not. We don't believe them anymore. Yeah.
[00:50:28] James: Yeah. So that's the
[00:50:29] Isabel: thing is like, just cause you, I don't know, cause you don't look like a board member doesn't mean you shouldn't be one.
[00:50:36] James: But also, but, but there is a sort of other side, the boards shouldn't be too big. Right. Right.
[00:50:42] Isabel: No I don't
[00:50:42] James: think.
[00:50:43] Isabel: No, no, I agree.
[00:50:43] James: Because otherwise it becomes sort of like
[00:50:45] Isabel: committees. Yeah, unwieldy, yeah.
[00:50:46] James: So, uh, create, is, you know, we were talking about this earlier, I was in a board meeting earlier today and, and we wanted to make the board more diverse.
And it's 50, 50 men and women, but it's not sufficiently ethnically [00:51:00] diverse. Yeah. And we, we want to address that over time and ensure that our sort of inclusion and belonging programs make that happen. But it's not straightforward. No. We've got a board of eight, 10 people. You know vacancies only arise every now and again.
[00:51:15] Isabel: Yeah, make sure
[00:51:16] James: the best people are appointed.
[00:51:18] Isabel: Of course,
[00:51:18] James: so Yeah to be strategic about it really you do some
[00:51:23] Isabel: things I think you kind of need to in a way you almost need to over correct to start with And then maybe you do need to hire too many people just to even it out and then it will sort of come back to balance in the first place.
Yes. Okay.
[00:51:43] James: I haven't thought of that.
[00:51:43] Isabel: That's an
[00:51:44] James: interesting strategy. I'm going
[00:51:46] Isabel: to get rid of people. If there's someone that's coming up to
[00:51:49] James: retirement. That's an interesting strategy. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you mean.
[00:51:54] Isabel: I'm sure
[00:51:58] James: they'll all be watching, isn't it? [00:52:00] Okay. Is there anything I should have asked you on this subject, which is fascinating that you feel I've missed?
[00:52:07] Isabel: I think the bit at the bottom of our framework is the metrics.
[00:52:11] James: Oh yes.
[00:52:12] Isabel: So data and metrics are increasingly important.
[00:52:17] James: You can be reporting and measuring,
[00:52:19] Isabel: reporting and measuring, but setting yourself some targets. So you could be doing all the greatest stuff in the world. And what does that amount to? In order to showcase and, you know, really show progress against your environmental and social and governance objectives, you kind of need to set yourself a target.
Um, there are some targets which are set for you, like the environmental, the net zero targets. There are others that you can make for yourself. So say, for your community action work, if you are training young people for jobs of the future, how many, by when, how much, what does that mean? Equate
[00:52:58] James: to be specific, [00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Isabel: be specific and then have, you know, what I've, I like to see is almost like a management accounts.
So you, you're very familiar with what you're reporting on your financial inputs as a company, pick some headline objectives so that you can, um, Have an equal conversation about your ESG objectives and show progress. Yeah, we have a sort
[00:53:24] James: of scorecard for our business. Exactly. And some of these measures you're saying should be part of that scorecard.
It should be
[00:53:29] Isabel: part of that scorecard because otherwise it's not an equivalent conversation. You're having the numbers based financial conversation and then you're having a narrative conversation about going volunteering or something. They're not equivalent conversations and with the legislation and the reporting requirements, they kind of need to be.
Exactly. And with the thing that's coming called double materiality.
[00:53:51] James: That sounds frightening. What's that? Yeah. Which is, um,
[00:53:56] Isabel: so that is not only, um, [00:54:00] accounting for what your company's impact on the environment and society is, but looking from the outward in. What is the impact of climate change and societal change on your company?
There are a lot of risks to that. If you're a travel company and people no longer want to travel because of climate change or it's too hot in Europe in the summer, that has a massive impact on your business. So you're now being asked to account for that outside in as well.
[00:54:33] James: That makes sense. I mean, a good business should be doing that anyway.
Yeah.
[00:54:38] Isabel: But many of them aren't. They're looking at the quarterly number.
[00:54:41] James: Right. No, I mean, those are long term changes, especially around technology. Yeah.
[00:54:46] Isabel: Yeah. So you need to then. Integrate that into your sort of risk, into your financial reporting, um, and into your future, look at the direction of your business.
So if you, if you've got a scorecard,
[00:54:58] James: which we have, yeah, [00:55:00] I'm sort of sold on this idea. We should be updating it to include. Yeah, show
[00:55:03] Isabel: in
[00:55:03] James: progress. So, so give me sort of three measures that might be fitting for what your carbon emission or.
[00:55:09] Isabel: Carbon emissions, definitely. Um, and then, you know, your pay gaps.
So that could be your gender and your ethnicity pay gap. Now, how are you doing on that? And then if you've set yourself a target around training a certain number of people into jobs of the future, uh, how many, how much by when did they stay in those jobs? Was that a successful program? That kind of
[00:55:32] James: activity.
So that's very tangible and that's very helpful.
[00:55:35] Isabel: Yeah. And then your board can have that regular cadence of conversation where they understand that was the baseline. That's where we're going. And this is where we are along that journey.
[00:55:48] James: Isabel, thank you very much. That's very helpful.
[00:55:52] Isabel: Free consulting.
[00:55:58] James: What gets you up on a [00:56:00] Monday morning?
[00:56:01] Isabel: I love what I do and the thought that through all the different bits of work that I do somewhere along the line, I'm helping to address issues of social justice and the reform of capitalism. That sounds very grand, but I think, um, it helps me to sort of pick and choose the work that I do.
Organizations that I work with, the volunteering work that I do. Um, if it's all aligned to that, to kind of using the resources of business to deliver what the world needs.
[00:56:40] James: Very good. Thank you. And my, my last question is, it's one from my interview book. It's a classic. One of the fateful 15 is where do you see yourself in five years time?
[00:56:52] Isabel: I'd love to be sitting on more company boards because I think that's where at the moment. I can personally [00:57:00] affect more change.
[00:57:02] James: Fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you to Isabel for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about developing a meaningful purpose for your organisation, visit profitwithpurpose.
co. uk I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed's purpose of improving lives through work, please visit our website. The link is in the show notes. See you next [00:58:00] time.
All about business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more at: www.reed.com
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