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In this episode of ‘all about business’, James Reed speaks to Reggie Heyworth, the owner of one of the UK’s biggest wildlife parks, Cotswold Wildlife Park, which was started by his father all the way back in 1969. James and Reggie discuss how he took over the business from his father, how they kept the animals alive during the pandemic as well as his thoughts on the ‘anti-zoo brigade.’
Reggie grew up in the Cotswold Wildlife Park, a business his father started in 1969, and which has grown into one of the UK’s largest wildlife parks. For several years, he worked as a conservationist on the African continent. In 2012, he returned to the UK to take over the running of the park. He created the park’s famous gardens, and also runs a number of initiatives, including Keeper for the Day, where you can learn about the animals and how they are looked after.
01:13 the origins of the wildlife park
04:03 early challenges and successes
10:29 modern zoo practices and conservation
21:07 Reggie's return and leadership
22:16 impact of COVID-19 on the wildlife park
27:17 navigating the reopening challenges
28:29 reassessing business strategies
32:15 difficult decisions during the pandemic
35:51 leadership and team building insights
37:44 the importance of loving animals
41:19 future of wildlife conservation
43:23 creating a beautiful environment
47:01 looking ahead: five years from now
48:07 conclusion and final thoughts
Visit Cotwold Wildlife Park: https://www.cotswoldwildlifepark.co.uk/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
00:00:29:09 - 00:00:53:03
Speaker 1
I know that inheriting a family business comes with challenges. How do you make the changes necessary for growth without damaging the qualities that made the business successful in the first place? Joining me today on All About Business is Reggie Hayworth. Reggie became the owner of the Cotswold Wildlife Park after taking over the business from his father three decades ago.
00:00:53:05 - 00:01:18:13
Speaker 1
In that time, he's tackled numerous challenges, including managing a team of over 200 people, keeping his animals fed during the pandemic, and staying true to his father's vision in the face of corporate adversity. So, Reggie, welcome to All About Business. I'm so pleased you're here because I've really been looking forward to this conversation, because I'm a long standing customer of your wonderful business.
00:01:18:13 - 00:01:39:13
Speaker 1
I've been coming to the Cotswold Wildlife Park, which you run for decades now. And, I just think it's one of the nicest places to visit. I think it's a wonderful business. And the people who work there universally, universally, kind and pleasant, which I think is so impressive, everyone I've met. So I wanted to get you in because I think you run a really interesting business.
00:01:39:15 - 00:01:58:14
Speaker 1
And, you seem to have a sort of Midas touch when it comes to looking after wildlife, but also also the the sort of culture and people side of the business. So how did how did it begin? I understand your father set it up and then you took it on. So the Cotswold Wildlife Park is a family?
00:01:58:16 - 00:02:24:24
Speaker 2
Yes. The the the house in the park that you visit. Was a house that he was born. My father was born in, in 1925. And after the war, he inherited the Second World War. He inherited it from his grandparents because his father had been killed in the war. And he was a young man. And the house went out of his family, was rented out for 20 years.
00:02:25:01 - 00:02:34:09
Speaker 2
And it was this rather strange, spooky place, a couple of, a couple of fields away from where? The family, my three sisters.
00:02:34:09 - 00:02:36:08
Speaker 1
Just a few bats and fruit.
00:02:36:10 - 00:02:57:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Were brought up a couple of fields away in a small, small house, and whenever my parents had another child, they added on another gable and and and then this house in the park came back to my dad in 1969, because it was in the middle of the land that he farmed, and he'd been born there, and he loved it.
00:02:57:08 - 00:03:19:17
Speaker 2
It was, what do I do now? And of course, 1969 was not the time of plenty. He didn't have cash. He he had land. He had assets like farmers do, but he didn't have. So he borrowed £40,000, a lot of money in those days. And he'd always loved animals. So when we were brought out, there was parents in the house.
00:03:19:17 - 00:03:39:17
Speaker 2
He had a collection of ornamental ducks. We always had dogs. He was a farmer. So he had, cows and there was animals everywhere. Dogs, everything except cats. Actually, my mother hated cats because, she'd been peed on one as a little girl. When she was sitting at the table with her parents.
00:03:39:19 - 00:03:41:05
Speaker 1
That would put me off and it.
00:03:41:06 - 00:03:43:22
Speaker 2
And she had to keep a straight face. And she never liked cats since.
00:03:44:01 - 00:03:45:13
Speaker 1
We've got some big cats there.
00:03:45:14 - 00:04:07:15
Speaker 2
Well, eventually she came round to them. And so that's how it all started. And on a wing and a prayer and a big loan and this passion that he'd always had for animals and this, and also his determination to hang onto the house, which needed a lot of money spending on it, money spending on it. It needed a new roof.
00:04:07:17 - 00:04:35:12
Speaker 2
It's not a very important or impressive house. It's not. It's great too. It's a sort of second division Victorian manor house. They had lovely trees and the and lovely have lovely potential in the grounds, which my dad, who was a very good garden and had a lovely, very good, plants, but as well he saw this and thought, right, we can do something here.
00:04:35:14 - 00:04:41:03
Speaker 2
But it was a big risk, you know, that it was, it was just when.
00:04:41:05 - 00:04:48:10
Speaker 1
So how did he actually begin? What were the first animals we've got? So he he was basically turning it what you described as a second division Victorian manor house into a.
00:04:48:12 - 00:04:53:00
Speaker 2
Into a visitor attraction. Yeah. And he thought, let's, let's get people to come and see.
00:04:53:02 - 00:04:55:07
Speaker 1
What did he put there first. What was your first.
00:04:55:09 - 00:05:22:14
Speaker 2
Just what everybody was doing at the time. I say everybody there was a chapel. Jemmy Chipperfield, the circus family going round. Yeah, an animal capture operation in Africa. And he been going round hard up toffs houses saying we can make a lot of money by creating Safari Park. So Longleat in 1966 was the first, the year we opened, I think was the, I think marble open that year.
00:05:22:14 - 00:05:26:05
Speaker 2
That was a drive around Safari park. I think.
00:05:26:05 - 00:05:29:02
Speaker 1
It was this event, like in Windsor. I remember.
00:05:29:04 - 00:05:49:20
Speaker 2
It all. Jemmy Chipperfield had this great insight. The British working class is the urban masses had got their first car and they wanted to explore the countryside. And he saw this as a market. And there was the theme parks of that day, places like Woburn open the same year that we did. And he was an absolute genius and lonely.
00:05:49:21 - 00:06:10:04
Speaker 2
They have no idea how many visitors they had because they just counted the cars. But in those days, the family car was the family car. Like a bench seat in the front it would be six eight people would tumble out of that car because it was a and you'd had they reckon they had over 3 million visitors to Longleat in 1966, the year they opened.
00:06:10:07 - 00:06:31:14
Speaker 2
They don't know. That's like Alton Towers at its height. And so my father, he, he could see that, you know, this was happening and it could happen to us. But he didn't want people to drive around because he always had this thing that, should people should get out of the car and enjoy the gardens, enjoy nature in its entirety.
00:06:31:18 - 00:06:55:21
Speaker 2
And that was what was slightly different to his approach at the time. And he so he he shied away from the big animals, you know, partly because of cost, and also welfare reasons. So right at the very beginning he said no elephants and no higher primates, chimpanzees, bonobos, orang-utans, gorillas. Because of he just didn't feel.
00:06:56:01 - 00:06:58:18
Speaker 1
That was unfair on them.
00:06:58:20 - 00:07:03:23
Speaker 2
This was before animal welfare had entered the public consciousness to anything like the degree that it has.
00:07:03:23 - 00:07:04:23
Speaker 1
So it was in his conscious.
00:07:05:00 - 00:07:30:13
Speaker 2
Yes. A my mum told me years later that they took me to London Zoo when I was a little boy, on a day out from my prep school. My dad was thinking of starting a zoo. That, and, this is in about 1968. Apparently. And, there was a very famous gorilla given by Mobutu Sese Seko, president of Zaire to Britain, called Guy the gorilla in London Zoo.
00:07:30:13 - 00:07:31:17
Speaker 2
Do you remember the guy? The groom?
00:07:31:17 - 00:07:33:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do, it didn't look very happy.
00:07:34:00 - 00:07:57:12
Speaker 2
Well, apparently I don't remember this, but apparently, we went to see the gorilla, and he was sitting, and I sort of do remember this. He was sitting in this enclosure in this house, and it was really dirty. And he was looking he was on his own, which is not a natural thing for a gorilla to be. And he looked really sad, and I started crying.
00:07:57:14 - 00:08:15:02
Speaker 2
And there's other kids, who is sort of, you know, making faces at him and hammering on the window and screaming and laughing and everything. But I cried and, my dad said to my mom off that, well, that's one thing we can't.
00:08:15:04 - 00:08:41:18
Speaker 2
And so so we kept out of that, which was one of the best things. I mean, there are lots of brilliant decisions my dad made, but those five animals avoiding them are absolutely crucial, although they're very popular, of course, in some ways. And so we it started actually very small, just with the walled garden, which you know about if you've been there so many times, and every zoo is going to have penguins.
00:08:41:20 - 00:09:01:22
Speaker 2
So you have to start with penguins. You cannot not have penguins in a zoo. And I remember them. I remember hornbills arriving because they got delivered to my parents house by mistake. The biggest animal, I think was a tapir, which is like a South American primitive horse. It was really simple stuff. And it was just that walled garden area.
00:09:01:24 - 00:09:15:02
Speaker 2
There was a small playground made by the estate handyman, and there was that lake area with my father's ornamental duck collection and a few flamingos and, but no rhinos. At that stage it was all much, much smaller.
00:09:15:04 - 00:09:18:05
Speaker 1
But people still were, efficiently drawn by that.
00:09:18:06 - 00:09:21:05
Speaker 2
There was nothing else in those days. Right? You know, those things was.
00:09:21:05 - 00:09:22:21
Speaker 1
So that.
00:09:22:23 - 00:09:42:12
Speaker 2
There was, you know, the blues. But, I mean, the early days were just chaos. The first weekend, they've no idea. They reckon 13, 17 of my father's great bit of advice after opening on Good Friday was whenever you open, never open on an Easter weekend, the idea of a soft opening hadn't occurred. So we were inundated on that first birthday weekend.
00:09:42:18 - 00:09:47:20
Speaker 2
The end of it. Everybody was just crying with exhaustion. I don't really remember it, but we.
00:09:47:20 - 00:09:49:12
Speaker 1
Did. What was that? Which year was that?
00:09:49:12 - 00:10:23:03
Speaker 2
Was Good Friday, I think fell on March 27th, 1970, an early Easter. And, and my father, the lovely curator, who was a, joined my father without pay to get it going. Jekyll, Brian Sinfield, now, this man who died last year, he he remembered, he told me walking down the drive on Good Friday that morning approaching 10:00, and there was one car waiting to come in and he walked down the drive, open the gates and he turned around.
00:10:23:03 - 00:10:46:09
Speaker 2
He couldn't bear to look behind him because he just saw, my God, there's no one here. And he, by the time he walked back out the drive, this is a constant stream of cars coming in, and they knew they had a success on that as well. Not a success, but they at least had the movie. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and in those days it was a shilling for children and two and six for adults.
00:10:46:11 - 00:10:51:14
Speaker 2
Right. 12.5 p for an adult, A5P for a child.
00:10:51:16 - 00:11:05:14
Speaker 1
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00:11:05:16 - 00:11:16:15
Speaker 1
So okay, so fast forward now to today. You mentioned London Zoo in your childhood visit that I understand now you have a bigger collection of animals than London Zoo. Is that correct?
00:11:16:19 - 00:11:36:16
Speaker 2
I someone told me that quite recently. I mean, I think I know London Zoo, a lot of zoos have been spooked by avian influenza. Right. Have really run down that bird collections. I'm not an open London zoo. I've still got a good bird collection, but I know some have gone out. I think they have pared back the collection quite a lot.
00:11:36:22 - 00:11:39:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think.
00:11:39:04 - 00:11:40:18
Speaker 1
Is there any zoo with more animals?
00:11:40:18 - 00:11:43:11
Speaker 2
Oh, yes. I'm sure there is just a, just as big a.
00:11:43:15 - 00:11:44:12
Speaker 1
Well, that's one way.
00:11:44:15 - 00:11:52:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think, I think coasters probably got more than this. I think they're sort of in the top four. Right. Top five by number of species.
00:11:52:24 - 00:11:56:08
Speaker 1
Right. So you've got what roughly how many different.
00:11:56:08 - 00:12:24:09
Speaker 2
That's 260 species. What we say and the big stuff is sort of gone. Rhinos, lions, leopards, zebras, camels, giraffes as I say a pretty broad brush approach to getting a lovely, diverse collection. My dad wasn't a specialist. He he loved everything. He loved breeding stuff. He was, he's just avoiding the big pitfalls. The elephants and the higher primates.
00:12:24:11 - 00:12:36:06
Speaker 2
But otherwise he just anything that you could get hold of them. Because in those days, you had to buy everything. Nowadays, the zoo community, we just swap everything amongst ourselves. No money changes. Ready? Yeah.
00:12:36:10 - 00:12:37:21
Speaker 1
How does that work, then?
00:12:37:23 - 00:12:56:00
Speaker 2
Where all the members of an association, the European Association of Zoos and Aquariums, all the major zoos, and you have literally a wanted list and, surplus list. All the major species anyway, a part of breeding programs managed independently.
00:12:56:02 - 00:12:59:21
Speaker 1
So it's part it's a bartered. Well, you.
00:12:59:23 - 00:13:24:16
Speaker 2
If you joined a breeding program, you might say, listen, we've got the facilities to take part in the, Asiatic lion breeding program. So there's a committee that runs that at a European level because endangered species. And they'll send you the husbandry guidelines, they'll check all your accommodation, make sure you've got all everything ready, and they'll say, right, Bristol Zoo's going to have surplus cubs next year.
00:13:24:16 - 00:13:49:08
Speaker 2
They're breeding and that'll will match one of their cubs up with a another cub from Frankfurt Zoo. And they breed theirs. And you can join the program. That's sort of how it all works. And it's it's wonderful because everybody cooperates now. And it's all about building the resilience in the captive population of zoo animals. And, and just trying to build that safety net population to the wild.
00:13:49:14 - 00:13:51:03
Speaker 1
So you also Asiatic?
00:13:51:05 - 00:14:11:00
Speaker 2
Well, us I mean, it's the same with African lions. Any major species of animal, the is always part of, a breeding program nowadays. Whereas when we started in 1970, it my dad used to he'd go to animal dealers, had to buy everything. The big expense was buying the animals. Those days you could go to Harrods, go downstairs in Harrods.
00:14:11:02 - 00:14:18:04
Speaker 2
If you couldn't buy that animal in Harrods, you could order it. You could order an elephant in that you can buy a cheetah that I.
00:14:18:05 - 00:14:22:05
Speaker 1
Used to say, you can drive anything I have. Yeah, I could. You're saying you.
00:14:22:05 - 00:14:38:17
Speaker 2
Had. Yeah. That's how it was. All animal dealers. The word conservation hadn't been invented in 1917. All right? No one had a thought. You know, Jemmy Chipperfield had an animal capture operation in East Africa. He was just hoovering animals up and just shipping them out, which.
00:14:38:17 - 00:14:40:11
Speaker 1
Is very shocking. Well.
00:14:40:13 - 00:15:04:09
Speaker 2
Nowadays, you know, one. So no one thought this, you know, these animals were endless, that it was only in the 70s and 80s the people started to wake up. The fact there was a huge die off, a huge drought in Kenya. It was filmed by, I think I'm going to get this wrong, but it was something like the survival series Anglia TV, the Buxton's.
00:15:04:11 - 00:15:24:24
Speaker 2
They were the first people to start doing the slightly hard hitting documentaries on what was happening in the forests. And, you know, people like Jacques Cousteau in the oceans 70s and 80s, people started to wake up to the, you know, the I some of the issues in the now so huge and topical, but particularly the word conservation started to appear.
00:15:25:01 - 00:15:45:13
Speaker 2
And then you had, you know, the born Free Brigade also emerging in the aftermath of the success of Joe Adamson's books in the film and Virginia McKenna and then the anti zoo movement and increasing consciousness about that started coming in the 70s and 80s. But when we were when we were kicking off, you know, it was a very different world.
00:15:45:15 - 00:15:55:16
Speaker 1
So Reggie and now the animal welfare is much more widely sort of paid attention to. Do you think it's appropriate that there are still gorillas in zoos?
00:15:55:18 - 00:16:27:06
Speaker 2
Oh, I mean, definitely, you know, we're we're a bit sort of cowardly, to be honest. Not having the elephants and the higher primates, that's gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos and orang-utans because that is partly a financial decision as well. Was it was welfare. My father just didn't feel he could do them justice. We got a challenging climate for that, you know, of winter's day is not great for elephants, not great for the other primates.
00:16:27:08 - 00:16:49:12
Speaker 2
But one of the one of the sort of anti zoo things is one of the saying. One of the things they say is that, you know, with the incredible advances in technology and drone technology and filming you, these new films by David Attenborough are so stunning and so amazing that there's no reason to have these animals in captivity.
00:16:49:12 - 00:17:13:11
Speaker 2
It's all there in front of you on the screen. So I completely disagree with that. There is nothing like seeing an elephant or a gorilla or something actually in the flesh if it, well, you know it, even if it's not in ideal situations. You know, like my experience as a child with Guy the gorilla made a huge impression on me.
00:17:13:13 - 00:17:38:20
Speaker 2
And and I really respect, you know, those zoos and safari parks in this country. I did in other countries that do try and meet the challenge of keeping these animals because without any question, the way they people are able to see elephants in captivity is absolutely critical to them. Getting an understanding of the importance of trying to do something about conservation in the wild.
00:17:38:22 - 00:17:59:15
Speaker 2
So that is not answered. You know, that is not the same as see the on the screen. So I think it's it's great that zoo there are zoos out there that are doing it. We are too cowardly or otherwise to do it. But I salute the guys who do do it. But it's very challenging for the elephants are really dangerous.
00:17:59:17 - 00:18:16:13
Speaker 2
The other primates are very challenging to look after. I think it, you know, I call it the kind of beat up, but it's it's a it's, you know, they do, although, have a really good life. I think a lot of them. But it's, you know, they have a tough life in the wild. So you know, which is, which is better.
00:18:16:13 - 00:18:20:22
Speaker 1
So elephants are dangerous or don't have some kind of bizarre, but yeah.
00:18:20:24 - 00:18:44:04
Speaker 2
They're always a danger. There's so intelligent. And you did an elephant never forgets. It's not a cliche. They really say, you know, I can think of forces in this country that jeep is killed in the last 25 years, and not to mention worldwide. You know, they're they're they're very challenging goals. And, you know, it's a huge expense. You're building the housing for the wood, all this sort of stuff.
00:18:44:05 - 00:18:44:21
Speaker 2
It's tough.
00:18:44:21 - 00:18:46:00
Speaker 1
They're magnificent, though.
00:18:46:00 - 00:18:46:19
Speaker 2
They're great.
00:18:46:21 - 00:18:48:10
Speaker 1
That is a big African elephant.
00:18:48:12 - 00:19:00:06
Speaker 2
And seeing the seeing the it is zoo for a lot of children is life changing stuff. Unless you do the Andes Brigade. They're fascinating. They're always people who can afford to go on safari.
00:19:00:08 - 00:19:01:05
Speaker 1
Right. Interesting.
00:19:01:09 - 00:19:12:08
Speaker 2
I've never, never yet met another De zoo person who's not from, a posh, privileged background. You know, and who really, you know, it's fine for them.
00:19:12:10 - 00:19:24:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Well, what's your view on the poaching? You know, sea elephants have been heavily poached in certain parts of Africa and the populations under pressure. There's been a lot of politics around poaching.
00:19:24:22 - 00:20:04:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, the whole conservation, the. I mean, why do I worry about the whole conservation issue is a it's a really difficult one, the wildlife part to navigate because fundamentally, you know, yes. Conservation actions like anti-poaching and helping all these countries to look after their wildlife habitats, all the rest of it is incredibly important stuff. But I personally feel that it's those are the sticking plaster treatments to a slightly more fundamental problem.
00:20:04:23 - 00:20:35:04
Speaker 2
There's only David Attenborough, as far as I can make out of the established people who will say this is that actually, it's all those days about human wildlife conflict, and that's always a function of overpopulation. No one talks about overpopulation. You will listen in vain to the BBC address the issue of overpopulation, because fundamentally it is regarded as being Islamophobic.
00:20:35:06 - 00:21:07:07
Speaker 2
That's it. We're onto very tricky ground here, but. And people won't look at the elephant in the room. A lot of the passion, if it's directed into conservation, is admirable, but at the end of the day, it's a slight displacement activity that enables everybody to unite around anti-poaching. Lovely causes like that, but stops of having to look at the real issue, which is giving women control over their bodies.
00:21:07:09 - 00:21:29:24
Speaker 2
That is not a message that goes down well in a lot of sub-Saharan Africa. It doesn't go down well in the Islamic world. And it's a it's not something that the Western world wants to confront. So I, I'm slightly conflicted on all of that stuff. So I go along with it like everybody does. Is a conservation charter.
00:21:30:04 - 00:21:38:09
Speaker 2
You we're doing all this for, you know, we're sending money to these charities doing all this work. But I it worries me that.
00:21:38:11 - 00:21:39:00
Speaker 1
It's not enough.
00:21:39:00 - 00:21:45:15
Speaker 2
They're not we're not addressing it. And in fact, by not addressing it, by avoiding it where they hear us.
00:21:45:17 - 00:21:52:13
Speaker 1
So you have taken this company forward in a very changing environment. You took over from your father, what, in 2012 or.
00:21:52:13 - 00:22:19:09
Speaker 2
So, where he died in 2012? I came back in Africa for five years until 1995, tourism and then in conservation of that. And my dad hit 70. In 1995, he was suddenly an old and, a slightly exhausted 70 year old. Really, and but still a font of wisdom and knowledge and everything. And he'd had enough of the wildlife park.
00:22:19:09 - 00:22:23:01
Speaker 2
It was very exhausting. It wasn't making.
00:22:23:01 - 00:22:24:13
Speaker 1
Money. So what year are we talking about?
00:22:24:14 - 00:22:25:16
Speaker 2
1995.
00:22:25:16 - 00:22:27:11
Speaker 1
So you so you basically got.
00:22:27:12 - 00:22:47:14
Speaker 2
So I came back from Africa slightly under duress. I was having a great time out there. And he said, you know, I was I was to be fair, I was 34 and I was older than I thought I'd be when I would start to get involved. But I was having a great time in Africa and I thought, you know, I'd be good for a few more years out there.
00:22:47:15 - 00:22:48:09
Speaker 2
And he said, no.
00:22:48:11 - 00:22:49:08
Speaker 1
He needed you.
00:22:49:10 - 00:22:52:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think and also, I mean, I was quite keen to come back in something.
00:22:52:21 - 00:22:53:23
Speaker 1
So you like the idea of.
00:22:53:24 - 00:22:55:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, very much so.
00:22:55:03 - 00:23:15:16
Speaker 1
But when Covid happened in, business, you know, we shut the office, people went home. I was super worried, obviously, because the, the demand for our services plummeted. But for your business, it must be much harder because you still have to feed all these animals, but look after them and have all the costs associated with that and employing the people who do that and zero income.
00:23:15:16 - 00:23:18:02
Speaker 1
You. Well, yeah. How did you get through that?
00:23:18:04 - 00:23:34:19
Speaker 2
I mean, we as I, as I said, when I, I'm not an accountant but I always look at that bottom line, the just the bank statement. And we sort of had a bit of prep for this with foot and mouth crisis in 2001. We didn't actually get. You have.
00:23:34:19 - 00:23:35:07
Speaker 1
To close.
00:23:35:07 - 00:23:57:02
Speaker 2
That. Yes. I mean, do you remember the day that agricultural secretary said don't go to the countryside? And we were just dead in the water area there. We closed. I remember it was just after February half term and nine, 2001. We remain closed until the end of March. But five weeks? Yes. And it's not a busy five weeks.
00:23:57:02 - 00:24:15:06
Speaker 2
And the weather wasn't that great. But we would have missed out on so 20,000 visitors and the accompanying cash flow. And at that point, you know, your cash does fall through the floor. And we were thinking if we did open in time for Easter, you know, we're really in trouble because there wasn't a lot of money around that at all.
00:24:15:06 - 00:24:35:16
Speaker 2
It was still bumping along the bottom that at that point my father said, right, this is going to happen again. We have got to build up a fighting fund of a year's operating costs to see us through this again, because it happened in the 1960s, and he was thinking of zoonotic diseases that we got to build up a strong balance sheet so that we could see this through again, because we got too many people.
00:24:35:16 - 00:24:38:07
Speaker 1
Zoonotic diseases, disease affects animals.
00:24:38:08 - 00:24:39:10
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:24:39:12 - 00:24:41:02
Speaker 1
But I should say people are an.
00:24:41:02 - 00:24:48:07
Speaker 2
Animal disease that would run the risk of jumping into into human populations.
00:24:48:12 - 00:24:51:04
Speaker 1
Or something like that. So it might have been one or it gave.
00:24:51:06 - 00:24:55:23
Speaker 2
Yes, something a huge I mean, that was the original theory coming out of Wuhan.
00:24:56:00 - 00:24:56:08
Speaker 1
The wet.
00:24:56:08 - 00:25:23:17
Speaker 2
Market in Wuhan, jumping from bats or whatever it was. I've probably got the term wrong, but it's my father was always worried that zoos would that be someday, as I mentioned, it would do for zoos overnight. And and disease being always a danger. And it took us 15 years to actually build up that that part I believe.
00:25:23:19 - 00:25:25:08
Speaker 1
He was quite a visionary was a job.
00:25:25:08 - 00:25:26:12
Speaker 2
Well, he.
00:25:26:14 - 00:25:27:16
Speaker 1
It's the thing to.
00:25:27:18 - 00:25:50:18
Speaker 2
Do. I don't like borrowing money, and I, I don't like, I think, you know, when when you don't do like it. Well, I'm not a risk taker. My dad was, you know, I'm I'm. I just feel much more comfortable when I look at the wildlife park. Think I've got 250 full time equivalent jobs, essentially has 150 families.
00:25:50:20 - 00:26:08:23
Speaker 2
As far as I can make a or mouths to feed or whatever it is. And I'm not going to bet the House on some dodgy outcome. And I want to make sure that if things go wrong, you know, we can carry on paying the wages and we can carry on looking after the animals and all that sort of stuff.
00:26:08:23 - 00:26:22:00
Speaker 2
So in that sense, I'm afraid I'm completely unadventurous and conservative. But I have really concentrated on building up a strong balance sheet and a healthy business. The conceit of whatever comes our way.
00:26:22:00 - 00:26:22:14
Speaker 1
When Covid.
00:26:22:18 - 00:26:55:00
Speaker 2
Covid came and it was clearly we were all nervous. A lot of people were terrified. We were obviously closed and the cash flow dried up at a crucial time of year, this time not at a quiet time of year. That first lockdown started on 24th of March, three days before our 50th anniversary, and it was going to take out the whole of the Easter holidays, which is your big, you get out of jail card for the year.
00:26:55:02 - 00:27:33:10
Speaker 2
That is when the people come pouring in and the weather was fantastic and that place was empty and it was costing us 20,000 a day just to stand still 50 miles. So even after putting all the customer facing stuff, so retail, catering, train guys, all that lot on, furlough that's still left, animal husbandry, all the keepers, all the gardeners, grants guys a couple of key secretarial people, you know, working, being, being paid and feeding the animals, getting the vets round.
00:27:33:12 - 00:27:36:13
Speaker 2
And it was really extraordinary.
00:27:36:15 - 00:27:37:21
Speaker 1
So how long were you closed for.
00:27:37:21 - 00:27:44:00
Speaker 2
That first lockdown took us till I think it was June the 10th, roughly. Was it June the 7th?
00:27:44:02 - 00:27:45:17
Speaker 1
June I remember,
00:27:45:19 - 00:27:46:09
Speaker 2
And.
00:27:46:11 - 00:27:47:14
Speaker 1
So it's like three months.
00:27:47:14 - 00:28:14:14
Speaker 2
But three months. Was it as long as that? Yes. March do them. Yeah. So all of April, all the May 12th months. And then of course you had all the social distancing thing, you had all the, you know, not being in crowded spaces. I mean, that opening up was really, really stressful because people everybody was an expert on Covid by this time and on social distancing, people were putting you under terrible pressure to stay shut.
00:28:14:20 - 00:28:26:11
Speaker 2
We were desperate to get open in order to keep the, you know, get the show on the road. Again. That was much tougher. I mean, just dealing with the people coming back. It was hell, frankly.
00:28:26:13 - 00:28:28:18
Speaker 1
But I suppose at least they were outdoors when.
00:28:28:18 - 00:28:52:20
Speaker 2
They were outdoors. And of course, with hindsight, you know, like I said, one thing, what was frustrating as well was, you know, we got a garden centre down the road, lovely, lovely business, family owned again, perfect garden centre was hugely popular, was never never had shut right madness. You know, there was, this huge wildlife park, 100 acres of open countryside.
00:28:52:22 - 00:28:55:23
Speaker 2
We were closed and people were rammed into this garden centre.
00:28:56:00 - 00:28:58:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Going there all the time.
00:28:58:09 - 00:28:58:15
Speaker 2
They.
00:28:58:15 - 00:29:11:17
Speaker 1
Did, they did. So there were some funny rules. So supermarkets and garden centres open wildlife park shut. Yeah, but since you reopened, it's done better than ever. Has that. I mean, I mean, you telling me you've had bigger visitor numbers since and.
00:29:11:17 - 00:29:38:15
Speaker 2
A lot happening. Covid that made you reassess your business. And I'm sure you find this and I did I went back to having the sleepless nights and I rang up a great friend of mine who's a very successful and a very punchy businessman. I said, Chris, what do I do? And he said, Reg, never waste a good crisis.
00:29:38:17 - 00:30:07:24
Speaker 2
And it was interesting to really look at the business and see where are we in terms of we're definitely going to come through this because if we go out with our balance sheet, then there's a lot of other businesses just going to be in a follower state. So I was I wasn't worried that we would have to feed the small edibles to the big owls, although a lot of the zoos were going to crowdfunding, a lot.
00:30:07:24 - 00:30:09:01
Speaker 1
Of that way of describing.
00:30:09:03 - 00:30:28:21
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, they were going all out. Oh, it was, I mean, London very quickly. Yeah. Well, very quickly, just a zoo. The two biggest cities in the country. And London Zoo was saying, you know, we got a crisis on the lions. We haven't got the money, you know, we're going to be feeding. And literally I think just saying we're going to speculating on how it was going to pan out along those lines.
00:30:29:02 - 00:30:52:21
Speaker 2
And they were doing crowd funding very quickly. They were in proper trouble, whereas we had a big cash cushion. And I said, we're going to be fine. But it wasn't quite a case of while you're at it, look at the business and what would you do? And I said, I've got a wonderful general manager, I've got one non-executive director who's my former financial controller and is a very labour intensive business.
00:30:52:21 - 00:31:16:13
Speaker 2
You're looking at, a big staff quote that you don't know how long they're going to be. Therefore I do. You really need them? So it was the Newt Gingrich question that I said to these two. I said, look at, Newt Gingrich. It was I can't remember what he was. He was a leader of the.
00:31:16:15 - 00:31:17:07
Speaker 1
Republicans.
00:31:17:08 - 00:31:20:14
Speaker 2
There. Yeah. And he was George Bush era. Yeah.
00:31:20:14 - 00:31:21:07
Speaker 1
What do you say?
00:31:21:07 - 00:31:56:13
Speaker 2
And he was a Yale professor, very controversial. Did you he apparently, I'm told, apparently after some CIA screw up, he famously said in exasperation, if the CIA didn't exist, would you invent it? And I said to these lovely people, my general manager and I said, please look at every job, look at every salary, look at every package, especially the expensive ones, and look at where we are now.
00:31:56:15 - 00:32:17:14
Speaker 2
And ask yourself, if we didn't employ these people now, would we be going out into the marketplace to try and recruit them? So we've got to just look at everything as if it wasn't there. What do you really need? And 24 hours later, they came back with four names, all quite senior people. None of them have been there for less than eight years.
00:32:17:14 - 00:32:44:12
Speaker 2
One of them did that for 30 years, and it was, these people we would not recruit on their salary now if they weren't. You, we wouldn't we'd cope. And, rather than wait for things to become clearer, I felt that they should all go then. That would give them a chance to get ahead of the game.
00:32:44:14 - 00:33:07:13
Speaker 2
Replanning, rerouting with life after Covid, instead of maybe joining loads of other people who've been let go by failed businesses. So that was the very painful bit of Covid, was sitting down with those four people and saying, giving them the letter, not something you had done before and you know, not something I do very well either. You know, lots of tears.
00:33:07:15 - 00:33:12:04
Speaker 1
It's very difficult. I mean, was true of everyone running a business. It was fun.
00:33:12:05 - 00:33:18:04
Speaker 2
It was definitely the best thing for the company, and I would maintain it was the best thing for them. Yeah.
00:33:18:06 - 00:33:36:14
Speaker 1
I'm sure. I mean, I had to do that myself in my career. And you see people progress afterwards and they go and have good jobs elsewhere. It is. And I still get Christmas cards from people. I've had conversations like that was nice. It's very difficult. It's not the nice part of any job. So you had to make some difficult decisions.
00:33:36:16 - 00:33:48:12
Speaker 1
I'm just thinking you you made that point about when you took over. You were pretty hands on. You know, you signed every check. What, are you still that hands on? Do you still know what everyone gets paid.
00:33:48:14 - 00:33:48:23
Speaker 2
30.
00:33:48:23 - 00:33:54:04
Speaker 1
Years old. Yeah. I mean, so you carried on running it like that, or if you changed your way, your approach.
00:33:54:06 - 00:34:10:18
Speaker 2
Interesting to ask the staff that. I mean, I think they would say that I really, a nightmare in my obsession with the detail because I'm obsessed with litter and cleanliness and scraping up chewing gum and picking up.
00:34:10:20 - 00:34:14:20
Speaker 1
That's what I don't like. Yeah, rubbish.
00:34:14:22 - 00:34:34:21
Speaker 2
And, and so and also I'm there every day, you know, it must drive them mad. So when I go on a holiday, the palpable sense of relief of my nagging, when I say when I see people on my last day before I say I make my sign off is enjoy my holiday. And they all go.
00:34:34:21 - 00:34:38:05
Speaker 1
Don't worry, we will. But I bet it's just as good when you get back.
00:34:38:05 - 00:35:06:12
Speaker 2
Well it is no, I mean they are so I am obsessive about all that stuff. But I mean, the difference is that whereas I parachuted in to so, you know, to a system where there were people who would, you know, you know, we used to my father's modus operandi, you know, that was the senior guy had to go basically, and he couldn't work with me and I couldn't work with him.
00:35:06:12 - 00:35:36:18
Speaker 2
So that was tough. That took about five years to realise, but it was just not working. The chap who my father relied on and who was incredibly loyal to my father and that was my dad, was absolutely brilliant about that because I said I was about 6 or 7 years in. I just I'm really sorry. I just got work anymore with this chap who'd been devoted to my dad, my dad to put it under, and my father, just a very simply a simple he's got to go.
00:35:36:20 - 00:35:39:09
Speaker 2
And he didn't. And I was we.
00:35:39:09 - 00:35:41:00
Speaker 1
Should have had that conversation soon.
00:35:41:04 - 00:36:08:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh for sure. I mean, when people have got to go in my experience, I've never seen enough. I think we all make the mistake of trying to make things work after their life span is clearly gone wrong. And, you know, I'm sure you know, in your hearts, if you know your business as well as you and I do, and your people as well as you and I do, that they're not happy.
00:36:08:05 - 00:36:16:13
Speaker 2
It's not working. They've got to go. And we just try and make it work. We pour a lot of energy into it and it's very sappy and it still doesn't work.
00:36:16:15 - 00:36:20:20
Speaker 1
No, no, I mean, nothing lasts forever, does it? But it is a difficult journey.
00:36:20:22 - 00:36:21:23
Speaker 2
And I mean.
00:36:22:01 - 00:36:26:02
Speaker 1
You're saying I think, you know, if you're starting to think that something's not working, it's probably not working.
00:36:26:02 - 00:36:41:21
Speaker 2
And that's what you wanted. Obviously you go to you, you do your best to make things work. One of the people I, met had the privilege of meeting once was, Clive Woodward, the chap who took England to their only World Cup.
00:36:41:23 - 00:36:44:07
Speaker 1
Rugby trial, 2003.
00:36:44:07 - 00:37:08:16
Speaker 2
Amazing. And he, after that he became sometime after he became director of football. So that and I was taken down that to a game and I was introduced to him and you had one chance to ask a question and, and I, I said a very lets me use the clothes. You know, I'd love to know what's your secret to building a good team?
00:37:08:18 - 00:37:31:15
Speaker 2
And he didn't pause for a second. He just looked at me and said, get rid of negative energy. I've never forgotten that. And and it was such a good it was so simple. And if you're running a people business, which essentially is what I am, and of course, you know, these animals are the most important thing on one level, but it's essentially a people business.
00:37:31:17 - 00:38:01:12
Speaker 2
You know, this thing of keeping people happy, keeping your staff happy, keeping them engaged and, and making sure that there's a positive energy around the place. And interestingly, in their different ways, the four people who had to go, I think, were not very happy in the job and probably had become or were seen as negative energy by some of their colleagues, or would have felt that way.
00:38:01:14 - 00:38:10:15
Speaker 2
And it was very interesting how it played out. But I think Clive would was really onto something there, and I'm sure that's what the reason was, such success.
00:38:10:17 - 00:38:23:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's good. Get rid of negative energy. So can I ask you, have you learned anything from the animals? I mean, you've I mean you've obviously got a lot from people you've met and but. So how have the animals taught you anything? Reggie?
00:38:23:09 - 00:38:47:12
Speaker 2
You never. That's what I love about. One of the things I love about the business is I love animals, too, which is lucky. I mean, you could not do what I do without absolutely loving animals and finding edible behaviour really interesting. And so you walk around that place and you see something different every day, and sometimes you see something really unusual, which is just amazing.
00:38:47:14 - 00:39:13:15
Speaker 2
And also the keepers are so interesting too, because they really know the animals and they'll make observations that are sort of new to science. And it's sad, actually. A lot of the keepers, you know, they're so knowledgeable, but they're not taken seriously enough by academia and things like that. It is changing. But in the old days, these old days, the not the knowledge that some of these old boys had is fantastic.
00:39:13:17 - 00:39:43:21
Speaker 2
And actually, that's what's so fun about the wildlife park is because yes, of course is a peaceful business and always come back to that. But the animals are absolutely essential quality animals and the birds, you know, and as long as you keep that focus on everything, that's that, that's what makes everything falls into place of that. Even all the people who work in the shop and catering, you know, just dishing out chips by the, you know, they love the animals to the sea.
00:39:43:21 - 00:39:54:02
Speaker 1
I think this might be your secret, because I've just observed in my life that people do love animals, decent people on the whole. That's why I know you've got. I think you can really.
00:39:54:02 - 00:40:11:02
Speaker 2
Judge a nation by how they treat animals. I really believe that the British, a complete softies for animals. I day with Attenborough, there's no one like him, and there's the adoration of that man in this. For for that.
00:40:11:06 - 00:40:11:20
Speaker 1
And his.
00:40:11:20 - 00:40:33:24
Speaker 2
Bravery. And also, you know, I was told that one of one of his series, you know, he hit the the hard to get 18 to 24 market like no one else in the BBC has ever hit it. And the BBC zoo are endlessly trying to sort of get down there with the kids in a really embarrassing of that dancing way.
00:40:34:01 - 00:40:39:06
Speaker 2
They've got nothing compared to what David Attenborough just does with it effortlessly.
00:40:39:08 - 00:40:43:06
Speaker 1
Reggie, you know this stuff, but you've confided in me that you don't have a television.
00:40:43:06 - 00:40:43:16
Speaker 2
Though.
00:40:43:21 - 00:40:47:09
Speaker 1
So. So when do you actually get your I even I know you're quite right.
00:40:47:09 - 00:40:48:01
Speaker 2
I do do.
00:40:48:01 - 00:40:51:15
Speaker 1
Some pretty cool having a television. Well I've gone off the grid.
00:40:51:17 - 00:41:14:19
Speaker 2
But even I've heard of of David Attenborough and I actually I think he's one of the reasons why zoos have survived, because that was a real moment, I think in the 90s, let's say 80s and 90s, when the anti zoo movement had a lot of traction, you know, there'd be big protests every bank holiday Monday in August outside the big city zoos Bristol in
00:41:14:21 - 00:41:16:13
Speaker 1
You think that's.
00:41:16:15 - 00:41:25:18
Speaker 2
I would say, you know, David Attenborough's quite pro zoo. I think zoos are doing a lot trying to do a lot.
00:41:25:20 - 00:41:27:02
Speaker 1
As part of conservation.
00:41:27:03 - 00:41:50:22
Speaker 2
Conservation, education. You know, a lot of it is greenwashing and inevitably, but they are on the whole, you know, fighting the good fight, I would say, and trying to put money back into good causes and all that sort of stuff. We certainly try to do our bit. I would say it's a mixed bag, but I think they've, they get I mean, it's so rare.
00:41:50:24 - 00:41:55:20
Speaker 2
For us to ever have any problem with zoo artists.
00:41:55:22 - 00:42:12:01
Speaker 1
Right? So that's a change. So looking forwards, you know, wildlife is under pressure. And in lots of parts of the world, its habitats are being squeezed out. What are your thoughts? Are you pessimistic? Optimistic? Gosh, what's what would you like to see happen?
00:42:12:05 - 00:42:12:20
Speaker 2
I mean, I.
00:42:12:20 - 00:42:15:09
Speaker 1
Think if you had a.
00:42:15:11 - 00:42:50:18
Speaker 2
Yes, I mean, it's such a tricky one that because, you know, you got to be optimistic and what I, what I would say on the optimistic side is what I see at the wildlife park, you know, helped by David Attenborough and all that is a real love and appreciation. Of nature and the knowledge about it all in the younger generation that we didn't really have, you know, they are much more attuned to what's, you know, to animals and nature.
00:42:50:20 - 00:43:18:23
Speaker 2
I just feel that, you know, in general, you know, the the next generation are really aware of a lot of and I think that's what the some of the wildlife park is really important is could be important in the sense you come to the wildlife park if you're a kid and on a subliminal level, you go away. Having seen all these animals in cages, which is, brutally speaking, you know what?
00:43:18:24 - 00:43:38:15
Speaker 2
What they are, they're like animals in cages. And they're there for your amusement. Essentially. You know, you're paying to go and see them on a day out and all the rest of it. But what one hopes is that parents and children will come away from that thinking. Will you know, we're in charge here. It's all dad to us, even the really big adults.
00:43:38:17 - 00:44:01:21
Speaker 2
They're there for our amusement, not amused. I mean that they're. I'm wearing, you know, it's up to us on a subliminal level. It's just making everybody understand that, you know, it's important to see where you are as a human being and what impact you can have, and how it all depends on you and your decisions. Yeah. Everybody must take responsibility.
00:44:01:23 - 00:44:29:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. God's really lovely and we take a lot of trouble with people. Love seeing all that. But one there's there's one particular corner in the walled garden which you probably haven't noticed, and it is about, the size of the corner of this sofa. It's it's where tarmac doesn't quite join in a corner of an ivory, where it meets, an ivory meets the perimeter wall, but it's next.
00:44:29:21 - 00:44:53:18
Speaker 2
You know, it's just literally a scrap of ground less than two metre square. And one year I said to the gardeners, you can't leave it like that. Plant it up and not only plant it up, but I want it to look really stunning. And it's become a sort of game. Every year is on the the client twice. And they know that I will notices.
00:44:53:18 - 00:45:25:04
Speaker 2
And the point being that, you know, if if, if people noticed that if they just see a derelict corner where the tarmac didn't meet, you know, the wall and the perimeter, you know, and maybe they'll just think. Or they may think they'll think, oh, that's nice. They may think that's really nice. I could do that. You know, I've got a corner in my street, you know, wherever there is no space too small in that place that you cannot be more beautiful.
00:45:25:06 - 00:45:59:05
Speaker 2
People are there for the day out. You've got to remember they're there for the day. Are they there to enjoy themselves? The people have such pressured lives nowadays, you know people. I just want them to walk around without looking at their phones. I don't want them to be feeling they've got to read signs all the time. I want them to be there, surrounded by the most beautiful of nature trees, animals, birds, flowers, lawns that we can give them without any clutter and just make them realise, you know, the world could be like this and it's up to us to make it like this.
00:45:59:05 - 00:46:11:03
Speaker 2
All it is is about creating beauty, giving people a bit of a chance just to wake up.
00:46:11:05 - 00:46:22:20
Speaker 1
I'm going to ask you two questions now, Reggie, that, I ask everybody. The first is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
00:46:22:22 - 00:46:53:05
Speaker 2
A Monday morning, very often. I've no idea what day of the week it is. And I really need that, well, over at work. Well, I'm at home. I'm at work every day. And every day is different. So a Monday is is as effortless to get to the wildlife park as any other day. I, I've never I live about half a mile away and I've never been at home and not called it wildlife park during the day.
00:46:53:08 - 00:47:22:13
Speaker 2
I just can't avoid it. So it draws me in all the time. And I think the thing that probably gets me in the most is that walk around in the morning before the visitors come, wearing my little blue plastic glove to pick up any bits of litter and. The changing seasons and the leaves on the ground at this time of year.
00:47:22:15 - 00:47:34:13
Speaker 2
Just thinking how beautiful this place is. And also asking myself the question all the time as I walk around, how can we make it more beautiful?
00:47:34:15 - 00:47:48:18
Speaker 1
Thank you. And I think I might know the answer to the next question I'm going to ask you because, which is a question from my interview book, why you which many people get all of their interviews, their job interviews is where do you see yourself in five years time?
00:47:48:20 - 00:48:28:15
Speaker 2
Gosh. Well, I, I will still be picking up litter for sure. I will still be going around the wildlife park every day that I've heard. I. I'm definitely hoping that, they will have, let go of certain aspects of the more more aspects of the job, which I think I am managing to do. But I think my staff will probably not quite see it in those terms.
00:48:28:17 - 00:48:30:01
Speaker 1
They'll still think.
00:48:30:03 - 00:48:31:10
Speaker 2
I I'm there for you.
00:48:31:12 - 00:48:39:01
Speaker 1
And I'm ready, literally picking out a rubbish I will give you. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming to talk to me today. So enjoyed our conversation.
00:48:39:04 - 00:48:45:17
Speaker 2
Thank you. James Strachan. It's been great.
00:48:45:19 - 00:48:54:19
Speaker 1
Thank you to Reggie for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about the Cotswold Wildlife Park, visit Cotswold Wildlife Park. Dot com.
All about business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more at: www.reed.com
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