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In this episode of 'all about business,' James Reed sits down with comedian, writer and mental health advocate Ruby Wax OBE.
They discuss how mindfulness can transform your mental health, how businesses can support struggling colleagues and the time Trump left her stranded in Arizona.
02:59 the Ruby Wax brand
06:14 mindfulness and personal growth
15:31 frazzled culture and authenticity
28:24 connecting with people in business
31:19 Rickman's wisdom: let people come to you
33:53 managing stress and mental fitness in the workplace
35:40 the importance of authenticity and self-management
39:05 the power of community and connection
43:41 a hilarious encounter with Trump
Join Frazzled Cafe: https://www.frazzledcafe.org/
Buy Ruby’s books: https://www.rubywax.net/books
Visit Ruby Wax’s website: https://www.rubywax.net/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
About Ruby
Ruby Wax OBE is an actress, comedian, writer, television personality, and mental health campaigner. In 2017, Ruby founded the Frazzled Cafe, a community based on the power of emotional openness that provides space where anyone can come and be listened to without judgment. Ruby has also released a range of best-selling books, including I’m Not as Well as I Thought I Was in May 2023. Ruby also offers leadership and management training, using workshops and practical exercises to enable business leaders to create trust and rapport and more skilled communication with clients and colleagues.
RUBY_WAX_PASS1
[00:00:00] Ruby: I worked at Deutsche Bank and there were people throwing up in the bathroom.
[00:00:03] James: Right.
[00:00:04] Ruby: You can't heal a company unless whoever's in charge understands what they're bringing to the table. Be the example.
[00:00:11] James: Over a quarter of the UK's employees experience negative well being because of work. So how can you improve communication?
While supporting colleagues who are struggling. So on the subject of President Trump, you did a program about him.
[00:00:24] Ruby: Well, my makeup artist had to do his hair. He said he wanted to be the next president of the United States and I started laughing. He left me in a plane and just dumped us in Arkansas.
[00:00:33] James: But he
[00:00:33] Ruby: knows how to create, evoke terror.
And that's another way of doing business if you're so terrorized.
[00:00:39] James: Joining me today on All About Business. This is Ruby Wax, OBE. A comedian, writer, and mental health advocate, Ruby provides businesses with leadership training. Helping them build trust and rapport among colleagues.
[00:00:53] Ruby: And I went to Oxford to learn cognitive therapy and neuroscience and mindfulness.
It's gotta be something you practice. You can't just [00:01:00] jump out of the plane and expect the ripcord to work the first time. No.
[00:01:03] James: Ruby Wax, the brand, has a timeless quality. I mean, you've continued to reinvent yourself. And people know who you are, and they continue to be interested, engaged, and love you.
[00:01:14] Ruby: I think you're right, it has to do with reinvention.
So once television was over for me, I did 25 years, and I was sure Louis Theroux stole my job. I didn't get sucked back into begging again. You should know when your moment is out, when your light's gone out. Do you want me to just be honest? I do have a bit of depression. Can you tell I'm depressed?
[00:01:33] James: Well, you told me I
[00:01:34] Ruby: know, but look at my eyes.
You can always tell in the eyes.
[00:01:37] James: Yeah, yeah, they don't look the same. Yeah,
[00:01:38] Ruby: they're slightly dead. Mental illness doesn't go away by wishful thinking. It really needs medication.
[00:01:45] James: So if someone presents as you think they might be depressed, you're their manager or your colleague, how can we help them? What should we be doing?
Welcome to all about business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything [00:02:00] about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
So today on all about business, I couldn't be happier. And to welcome Ruby wax, uh, my friend and neighbor and collaborator on several projects and Ruby, um, I invite you to come and talk to us on all about business because you,
[00:02:37] Ruby: which ones do we collaborate on when you took me to, can I say it
[00:02:42] James: to,
[00:02:42] Ruby: um, your horsey people who do the hunt?
And it was a drag queen contest and they were magnificent as women as men. I didn't really,
[00:02:50] James: well, yeah, that was a very good, good example. That was a good collaboration.
[00:02:54] Ruby: You do take me to drag
[00:02:56] James: hunt. Yeah, that was one. And then we went to Dubai. So [00:03:00] Ruby, the reason I asked you is obviously you're in the entertainment business, but that does not do you justice.
I don't think because way beyond that, you're, you're in the funny business, you're in the book business, you're in the well being business, you're in the training business. I mean, you've, you've got your own personal brand. I mean, you're big in business in my view. And, uh, I wanted to talk to you about that because Ruby wax, the brand.
Has, um, has a timeless quality. I mean, you, you've continued to reinvent yourself and people know who you are and they continue to be interested, engaged and love you. As a brand, almost, I feel, so it
[00:03:42] Ruby: I think you're right, it has to do with reinvention, because you're pegged at a certain point, you know, when you're in first gear, and you're, nobody's gonna get in your way.
That could end really quickly. You know, because you have a short life in television. I remember once, um, [00:04:00] um, what's his name? From Fawlty Towers. John Cleese fell over in a, in a supermarket. He had a heart attack and everybody walked around him and clapped, thinking it was a prank.
[00:04:11] James: Oh no, really? I didn't know that story.
Yeah,
[00:04:13] Ruby: but I mean, But
[00:04:14] James: he's still alive, so someone must have felt it. Somebody, yeah, well, I think he got up. Think it was a prank. Yeah.
[00:04:19] Ruby: But you don't want to be thought of as a, as a stereotype. You've got to break that one. Even though I was a brand and it got me a job, it wouldn't have lasted. A brand doesn't last.
It has to change.
[00:04:30] James: It has to continue to reinvent. Yeah. Which you've done so brilliantly.
[00:04:34] Ruby: I was thrown out early from the Royal Shakespeare Company. Mainly because I couldn't act. So that would have ended the career. There were all possible ends. But then if you switch gears, switch gears. And I think I learned that from my parents who were immigrants.
Refugees. They had to keep switching countries. So we're used to putting our pianos on our backs and scuttling to the next place. We're not sentimental like, Oh I did this all my life or this dirt represents where I [00:05:00] lived. We don't fight for our corner, we just move quickly. And so I think I got that from my parents.
It's in my DNA. So once television was over for me, I did 25 years, and I was sure Louis Theroux stole my job. I was sure. Louis Theroux
[00:05:15] James: stole my job. Louis Theroux stole my job,
[00:05:17] Ruby: and then he interviewed me. He interviewed me about, um, two years ago, and he was a really nice guy. He didn't steal it at all. And he said, why don't we put your shows all together on TV?
So they did. But the point is, I wasn't auditioning to get my job back. That would have been a low, low card to play. They put my shows on. Yeah, they put the best on. There have been terrible ones, ones where I've hidden in my house behind furniture. They were so awful. The point is, I didn't get sucked back into begging again.
You should know when your moment is out, when your light's gone out. And then, and then look inside and say, what is the real interest? And that's, I'm in that position now [00:06:00] again. What's, you have to look in and say, what's interesting for me? If you're lucky enough to not have to earn money to keep your family alive.
And I'm in that, I'm so lucky. I could just, you know.
[00:06:11] James: Yeah, no, that's interesting. So you say look inside. So when you want to make a transition or a switch or that's what you do Well, you have to What's that? What talk to me about that? Well, because I
[00:06:22] Ruby: do mindfulness It is it's not anything spooky or you're not sitting on some gluten free cushion it's a real way of taking the Temperature inside rather than just outside like what's the state and if you're shaky or you think this is really there's something It's different than, um, than just being frazzled.
It's, it's, um, a niggling. That your life isn't satisfying anymore. I think it's called going into the second half.
[00:06:50] James: Yeah.
[00:06:50] Ruby: Is that now it's no longer relevant to find an identity, to find a personality, to find which I did. I found a personality and boy did I hold on [00:07:00] to it. To my detriment sometimes because people come up and they're laughing and it's no longer me.
But because I switched gears so quickly and I went to Oxford to learn. Um, Cognitive Therapy and Neuroscience and Mindfulness. I could switch it really quickly. And it meant I could find satisfaction in going to Oxford. In a way, it had more dignity than television.
[00:07:20] James: Yeah,
[00:07:21] Ruby: so it the jump was was Agonizing, but then once you do it and you find your milieu again, then you can go on creating
[00:07:30] James: But you've written several books about
[00:07:32] Ruby: seven
[00:07:33] James: seven now.
Yeah, and they're bestsellers I mean, these are excellent books and you also you did the one woman's show. I'm not as well as I thought I was. Yeah, which I saw, which was brilliant. Tell us a little bit about that, because I mean, that really encapsulates your journey in a way.
[00:07:50] Ruby: Well, that's the journey now. I mean, I started off, I used my dissertation from Oxford.
I did it, I got all the, um, abdicators. Is that what their names are? [00:08:00]
[00:08:00] James: Abdicators? Yeah. Or adjudicators? I don't know what you mean. Adjudicator.
[00:08:04] Ruby: Yeah, I got all the adjudicators. See? Little bit of dyslexia never heard anybody. It's good for comedy, but it's crap for uh,
[00:08:12] James: This is just a long word for people at oxford
[00:08:15] Ruby: So I they rather than writing a paper.
I mean I had to do a dissertation. I did a show so they graded the show and I got um, I got a you know
[00:08:24] James: first class degree first
[00:08:25] Ruby: class degree And then I took it and I put the comedy in and then I turned it so I I toured it So it's like killing two birds with one stone or many birds with one stone and um So I, I took my old job, which was comedy, and that's only because I speak dyslexia.
So sometimes I'm being very serious, but the words come out. In a jumbled way. It's like playing jazz instead of a symphony and people think it's comedy. Well then, you know it's comedy and you start brushing up on it. You polish it and polish it.
[00:08:55] James: But, I mean, you are known for comedy. I mean, you're a funny person.
I [00:09:00] mean, people, you make people, I mean, I've been in many situations where you've made the
[00:09:03] Ruby: people in the room laugh, Ruby. Hopefully, they're paying for that ticket. Yeah, I mean, you're certainly
[00:09:09] James: good at that.
[00:09:11] Ruby: I never though, um, just did, you know, Hey, funny thing about my plant or anybody here from Sheboygan.
I didn't do stand up. I did Alan Rickman. My mentor from the Royal Shakespeare Company taught me he said do a narrative so that if nobody laughs you're still doing a play You're on track. And so he taught me for 30 years. He said stop looking so desperate That's so
[00:09:34] James: interesting do a narrative
[00:09:35] Ruby: do a narrative.
Yeah, don't look for laughs
[00:09:38] James: Right, so you can just carry on with your narrative, if they're laughing or not.
[00:09:42] Ruby: No, it's a story. It's got a beginning, middle, and an end. And he made the most bizarre decisions. There was one show I did where nobody knew who I was. It was really early on. So I pretended I couldn't get in the dressing room.
Because somebody had locked me out, so I had the audience helping me, banging on the door to get in there [00:10:00] so I could do my makeup. Finally, I couldn't get in, so I went into the middle of the stage with a chair, and started doing my makeup, and ironing my clothes, and setting fire to those curlers, you know, so I could curl my hair.
Meanwhile, I'm talking the whole time, and it's funny. stuff, but it looks like somebody in my mind. I can
[00:10:17] James: imagine that was very funny. And then
[00:10:18] Ruby: finally, when I was fully dressed, the lights went out because the crew said that's it. So I finished my show outside the Donmar singing, lip syncing to Perry Como.
And every night the police came and took me away and 300 people applauded. That was my show every night. We'd have to get out of prison. But that was Rickman's
[00:10:40] James: idea. That was his idea. I'm just thinking how you apply that. You could apply that into all sorts of situations. Well, you go sideways.
[00:10:47] Ruby: You know, you, um, novelty is when people's brains The neurons start shifting.
If it's the same old, same old, and you're dead, you pass that deadness on to the next person. And I really think, [00:11:00] again, with mindfulness, you take the temperature inside, read the other person, because the only way you can read another person is by reading yourself, and then switch gears. Novelty is what makes People go aha, this is an original.
We only want people who think out of the box and yet Businesses and schools crush that you know, the fear levels are so high that nobody dares to freefall and you got a freefall
[00:11:26] James: So businesses and schools crush that that's um, that should concern us because what you're saying is Novelty is the basis of creativity And
[00:11:37] Ruby: a lot of, a lot of businesses, I suppose, just keep their boots on and do the same thing they've always done.
But I think companies now have to reinvent again, because your jobs are going to be replaced pretty quickly. So you've got to,
[00:11:51] James: yeah, that's true. Not
[00:11:52] Ruby: you. I
[00:11:54] James: think it might be true of a lot of jobs.
[00:11:57] Ruby: You've got to jump sideways and think, what's, what's [00:12:00] the human quality that I can bring to this? What can't be replaced?
And I think something like comedy. Can't they can't do it. Uh, I've tried it on GVT. They cannot create that rhythm.
[00:12:13] James: It's
[00:12:13] Ruby: genuine. So I think if you're a salesman or you're trying to get work, you really have to think out of the box. What's going to grab that person? If you're deadly, it's like auditioning for an acting job.
If you're deadly, read it in the other person and switch gears really quickly and tell them something about yourself. I mean, we've dehumanized people. For example, do you want me to just be honest?
[00:12:34] James: Yeah,
[00:12:36] Ruby: well, I James is my friend, so I didn't want to turn him down today, but I do have and I haven't had it for five years.
I do have a bit of depression. So this is really hard to do. And I don't know if I'm making sense, but I'm looking at your eyes and they're engaged. So I know I'm still on track. But I think If you were in business, if you had the nerve to say, this is my state, then people [00:13:00] go, oh, I see, I'm not going to judge her as, as I know her.
I'm going to switch tracks and go, oh, this person has a problem. And I think it takes a lot of chutzpah to do that, but it makes you like me more. It makes you more, it brings out the compassion, and compassion is the only thing that sells.
[00:13:18] James: We're delighted that you're watching this episode. Please hit the subscribe button if you'd like to receive more insights and actionable advice that will help your business and your career.
[00:13:31] Ruby: Can you tell I'm depressed?
[00:13:33] James: Well, you told me you were. I
[00:13:34] Ruby: know, but look at my eyes. You can always tell in the eyes.
[00:13:37] James: Yeah, yeah, they don't look the same. Yeah, they're
[00:13:39] Ruby: slightly dead.
[00:13:40] James: Well, they're just a bit sort of Yeah, misdeed. I can't, you're not behaving as if you're very depressed. No.
[00:13:47] Ruby: But you said you
[00:13:48] James: are, and I have no reason to think you might be.
But I'd say my business is that I
[00:13:52] Ruby: understand the difference between frazzled and somebody who's got an illness.
[00:13:55] James: Yeah.
[00:13:56] Ruby: You know, because when they've got an illness, They've got to deal with it in a really [00:14:00] different way.
[00:14:00] James: Yes, so talk me through that. So if someone presents as you think they might be depressed,
[00:14:05] Ruby: you're their manager or your
[00:14:07] James: colleague.
How can we help them? What should we be doing? Well, every
[00:14:11] Ruby: case is different. Yeah, that's the
[00:14:12] James: hard part about it really.
[00:14:14] Ruby: I know. Well, HR ain't gonna know.
[00:14:17] James: You
[00:14:17] Ruby: know, I mean It's your job to say, I see the eyes, they've been like that for a while. And maybe somebody writes, or somebody who's close to them is notified, they need medication.
I mean, I'm from that school.
[00:14:29] James: So this person sitting next to you, you're worried about them, you suggest they go and see your doctor.
[00:14:34] Ruby: Maybe you say and go out and, you know, have a drink with them or whatever, and say, here's what's going on for me, what's going on for you. But go to you first. And if they ask for your help, take them by the hand and get them to a doctor.
Right. Mental illness doesn't go away by wishful thinking. It really needs medication.
[00:14:52] James: Well, no, thank you for saying that because I, I, I would identify your authenticity as a person as [00:15:00] one of the things I like most about you and I think really attracts a lot of people to you as Ruby Wax, the brand.
Usually
[00:15:04] Ruby: I talk about mental illness, I'm not really mentally ill myself. Yeah, but now you don't feel
[00:15:08] James: very well.
[00:15:09] Ruby: Uh, I, I have the beginnings of it and if somebody's
[00:15:12] James: coming to talk to, Oh no, I would only
[00:15:14] Ruby: do it for you.
[00:15:15] James: Well, otherwise I'd lie and say I
[00:15:17] Ruby: had pneumonia.
[00:15:18] James: No, well, thank you for that, but I don't want you to continue if you don't feel.
[00:15:22] Ruby: No, no, I can continue because I like you and your eyes are engaged. So you're pulling me out of myself.
[00:15:27] James: Right.
[00:15:28] Ruby: And I think that's what in business, help the other person. You know, everybody's maybe one in four have a mental illness, but four and four are frazzled. And frazzled is a neurobiological word. I keep saying it.
It's not a hairdo phrase.
[00:15:41] James: Go on, explain frazzled. Frazzled is Let's do the four in four and then we'll do the one in four. Yeah. And how we should help and Right. Engage with both.
[00:15:47] Ruby: Well, we're all frazzled. You know, the culture is frazzled. So you're not your frazzled. fault. There's so much, it's surrounded by weapons of mass distraction that you don't know where it is.
Weapons
[00:15:56] James: of mass distraction. I like that. So go on. What's so [00:16:00] frazzled? Because,
[00:16:01] Ruby: because you're stressed about stress. I mean, this is a new phenomenon. People in the past, I've said this before, didn't die of stress. They died of old age, about 12 and a half bad teeth, but it wasn't stress. We're supposed to be stressed.
That's what gives you your mojo. And then when a predator or something came along, you'd have to take them on. But once the incident was over, you'd go back to being cool again, and
[00:16:25] James: eating
[00:16:26] Ruby: whatever your buffalo burgers around the fire. Now, we're always wired. The minute one thing ends, the next thing has to replace it.
We're addicted to the adrenaline. It's so addictive, and it's delicious. Like, nobody gets addicted to kale. But, um, you, I'm not saying, uh, But we're looking for
[00:16:45] James: the next buzz all the time. We want the
[00:16:46] Ruby: next buzz. And so the fear starts to taste good and it starts to taste normal. And people show off how busy they are, like that's a badge of honor.
You know, I get in taxis, they say busy, like they're going to throw me out if I'm not. [00:17:00] So I said, I've just had a quadruple bypass. I'm on life support. They go, you must be doing so well. God forbid I say I'm not doing anything. I think we're, part of it is not being authentic. And I don't know where that fits in in business.
But I'll tell you, you make somebody's heart beat if you tell them the truth about yourself. Or you get the truth out of them, you know, by saying, I don't know, something truthful about you that makes you frazzled. You know, you couldn't find a parking space that's a little shallow, but um, maybe something about your home life, maybe it's hard to keep up with a family life and doing business.
Just something that gives people a clue that not all is well in the state of Denmark
[00:17:42] James: and that brings them closer. Totally.
[00:17:44] Ruby: Totally. That gives you everything.
[00:17:46] James: Right. And a lot of people are worried about doing that, aren't they? Because I think they fear they might be sort of pushed away. But you are saying the opposite happens that.
[00:17:55] Ruby: Yeah, we were born to bond. We were born to bond and it was this [00:18:00] sharing of ideas, of throwing it in the pot. It's not saying I'm miserable, it's just saying, you know, I run Frazzle Cafe. And the idea is that people, I always say, what's the weather condition going on inside of you? And people are so satisfied to say, it's stormy, um, my life is, you know.
Smashing against the rocks and you can see as they say it. I'm not saying you do this in business But their eyes settle down the calmness because people want to be heard if you want to talk to somebody about a job Ask him about their personal life get to know them and you'll really see the person be
[00:18:34] James: careful doing that these days in job interviews
[00:18:36] Ruby: Yeah, but do it slowly.
[00:18:38] James: Yeah,
[00:18:38] Ruby: do it slowly. I mean you're not gonna go. Are you depressed? You're gonna say You know, what's going on? What disturbs you? Here's what goes on for me. You've got to come at it. That's what I did with my interviews. I said, I told them my stuff first. And then they told me theirs, and there was an intimacy.
And then I didn't mention it when we were on TV. I [00:19:00] never deceived them. Right. But I knew everything about them. And so that's what made our eyes lock.
[00:19:05] James: Right. So you, you said four out of four of us. Am I
[00:19:08] Ruby: jumping around too much? No, no. Okay. Well,
[00:19:10] James: that's really interesting, really. Now, I don't think, I mean, fully engaged.
So four out of four you say are frazzled. And then you said one out of four are sort of more than that. Anxious, depressed, perhaps. Well, anxiety
[00:19:22] Ruby: is frazzled, you know, as I said before. Okay, so beyond that. Yeah, it's that voice that says I shouldn't be nobody likes me. I'm not good enough and that's fed in by the culture I always think it's not your fault.
You're comparing yourself with the rest of the world rather than it used to just be the village Yes, you know you you didn't pull your weight You'd want to pull your weight because you didn't want to let the team down now. Where's the team the team is worldwide And you're never going to win. So the fact that
[00:19:48] James: we're no longer in a village, makes it almost impossible, does it?
But you
[00:19:52] Ruby: know, the idea is to create little communities, which you could do at Reed, or you could do in any business. Create that safety. [00:20:00] But I'm jumping around here. That's really
[00:20:01] James: interesting, I'm really interested in that. So you're saying you should try and create little communities.
[00:20:05] Ruby: Yeah, because that's all people want.
Have you
[00:20:07] James: seen how people do that? Or have you got any advice for people who might Be sort of interested in doing better in that respect.
[00:20:14] Ruby: Well, I do talk to businesses and um, I We sometimes build frazzled cafes and it replaces a smoking room Remember when people got in there and they you know, we've got a
[00:20:24] James: sort of bus stop in the car park You know, but a place
[00:20:28] Ruby: maybe where they feel safe to speak or we could lead them, you know with frazzled cafe But people need to feel like they're connected, you know, they used to do Spitball fighting or whatever you guys did on weekends, you know, color, you feel colors that doesn't really do it.
That's just bringing out the boyishness Yeah, but I think somewhere you may start with that but end with people sitting around and saying here's what's going on I mean, it sounds very touchy feeling but it works in businesses. I did that at this with the civil service, right? Yeah, the senior civil [00:21:00] service.
How did it go? It went really well. I said get out of the suits Get out of the suits read yourself emotionally And I told him how to do that. And then, socially, you know, manage yourself and then you can manage other people. Give yourself some
[00:21:14] James: Yeah, I was thinking leadership. The first person we got to learn to lead is oneself.
Well, what
[00:21:20] Ruby: is it? Yeah, you've got to lead. It's the hardest part. But don't imitate the next guy.
[00:21:24] James: No.
[00:21:24] Ruby: Don't. I mean, it's hard to say be true to yourself because most people don't know who their self is. And it's not taught in school.
[00:21:32] James: No, so be true to yourself. So how do you do that? How do you find out who you are?
I don't think there's
[00:21:39] Ruby: a black box, like at the end of a plane crash, you know, and here's where you are. You're many different facets. But it's important to know, oh, I'm in this personality, I'm in this one, I'm scared now, this person intimidates me. Just being aware of it lightens the load. You know, sometimes a kid went up to me once and said, I'm really nervous [00:22:00] meeting you.
Immediately it, uh, it lightened the load.
[00:22:04] James: Yeah. Yeah, you see that with performers quite often. I was at, um, the Other Voices music festival in Dingle the other day, and they were there, yeah, I'm showing off, and that they, but several of the performers in the little church said, I'm feeling really nervous, and they immediately got, Oh.
Sort of warm response from the audience. It's a applauding them and saying go for it And yeah, and you could see that they were encouraged and in the relationship was set, you know Then they're connected just by saying that in a way, which was interesting.
[00:22:33] Ruby: Yeah, just state where you are You don't have to go on about
[00:22:36] James: I would have never I'm being taught to get on, so I'm feeling a bit nervous.
Well, you're the
[00:22:40] Ruby: leader, you know, I guess you have to be invincible.
[00:22:42] James: I don't know about that. I don't
[00:22:43] Ruby: know about that, but you know, the next way of, the next thing is, I worked at Patagonia. Yeah, great,
[00:22:50] James: great company. Yeah, that's like
[00:22:51] Ruby: the first, um.
[00:22:53] James: Well, it's a fantastic company. The core company, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:56] Ruby: And there were 18, 000 people auditioned to be [00:23:00] an intern there. The, the atmosphere is unbelievable. If they want to go surfing, they can go surfing. They all have to have a cause. So they choose, you know, it could be a women, um, Getting business together in India. Uh, Ben and Jerry's did refugees. Dove soap.
You know, they got together with the groups and said, What means a lot to you? And the girl had body dysmorphia when she was young. So she created that image of all different shapes. And they go into schools and talk to kids with body dysmorphia. So everybody has a reason for being there. Way beyond just doing, you know, the regular job, but I've never seen people just bathing in their place.
They didn't leave Super
[00:23:41] James: engaged
[00:23:42] Ruby: super engaged and the guy who led it was um, totally charismatic, you know They just started off they wanted to do Uh, snow, snow pics. Yeah, yeah. To mountain climb. And then it just grew and grew and now they're so authentic. They come out and say in the newspaper, Um, [00:24:00] don't buy this product again.
You know, just do it once. If something happens to it, send it back. We'll fix it. Now, nobody sends it back, but they keep buying and buying and buying. I mean, I'm not saying that's a clever ploy. But one woman called up and she said, My cat peed on my fleece. What do I do? He said, what kind of cat is it?
[00:24:21] James: Did she get a new fleet?
[00:24:22] Ruby: She got a new cat. But you know, they're
[00:24:27] James: talking here about the sort of connecting with people in all sorts of human ways and
[00:24:33] Ruby: being, being transparent about what your company's doing.
[00:24:36] James: Yeah,
[00:24:37] Ruby: you know, so they can trust you on the good stuff, but tell them the bad stuff, too I don't know if this is applicable to business, but to me it's applicable to life and life is business
[00:24:46] James: I agree with that.
No, I think being sort of honest and transparent is really important Yeah, because no one expects it to be going well all the time because clearly that's not what happens We have good days and bad days good years and bad years. Sometimes business is [00:25:00] booming. Sometimes it's not So I think that's having that relationship of trust is so important people in the organization.
I asked a question of one of our great authors the other day. And, um, I'm, I was concerned about AI writing novels. Yeah, and yeah, would people read novels written by AI this is a threat to everyone in the creative world I suppose you say I can't do comedy, which is good. But yeah, it could probably write a story and And I asked him whether he was concerned about that.
It's Michael Frayn. It's very good, right brilliant man and and he said no, he wasn't concerned about and I asked him why not and he said because People don't care about the computer. They care about other people So his thesis was we'll only read a book written by a person because yeah, how would you know that's
[00:25:55] Ruby: the thing?
Well, that's what I'm
[00:25:56] James: worried about. How would you know?
[00:25:57] Ruby: Yeah
[00:25:58] James: in the end, you know, how [00:26:00] do you know? It's a
[00:26:01] Ruby: pop song I suppose but I'm real, you know, those of us who have a little a Few IQ points. There's there'll be some feeling that's missing
[00:26:11] James: you think so Yeah, I mean now
[00:26:13] Ruby: now but who knows in the future I
[00:26:15] James: mean, but there is some music that sounds pretty good that's created by
[00:26:19] Ruby: AI.
I think
[00:26:20] James: you can do it with music. Yeah. So if you can do it with music, maybe you can, maybe your narrative could be created by AI. But I think the point about not care, but about caring about other people, that connection with people is really important because that is what will lead the change.
Ultimately, you know, the technology will support people to do new things, but they're still going to want to connect with each other. And you
[00:26:44] Ruby: have to practice it. None of this comes naturally. You know, so I get, you know, if I get in a taxi, not all the time, but find out about him. And watch how smooth that ride is, you know, and you can get them off.
So you
[00:26:57] James: always ask them about themselves? Not
[00:26:58] Ruby: always, but I sort [00:27:00] of do and it's remarkable sometimes. What were the
[00:27:02] James: interesting things you've heard? What did you hear this morning you came?
[00:27:05] Ruby: Oh, he was had a, with, it's nice. He shared he had a fever and was really ill. Oh no. Yeah. And I thought, what am I sitting in this car for?
[00:27:13] James: Well, that's useful to know though. You might want to get in. And then I
[00:27:15] Ruby: said, you know, I had a migraine. I didn't.
[00:27:17] James: Right.
[00:27:17] Ruby: But he started to have sympathy for me and then said, did I want to stop somewhere for coffee? You know, it started off really cold and I thought by the end, and it makes it, it gives it like, there's a hit in your heart when you connect.
So when I got out, I felt there was love from totally cold to like, where are you going? And I said, turn off the music. I've got a migraine. Can we get some coffee? Now he's looking for coffee places for me. And then when I get out, he said, have a really good Christmas. And, you know, even if you don't do it at work, if you do one, I know I sound so fluffy.
I used to say to my professor at Oxford, don't say the C word. And I, finally I can say compassion, but you can get hits throughout the [00:28:00] day and then it comes out, you know, you've got to ping it to use it. Yeah.
[00:28:04] James: I was thinking of another C word, not a rebuttal, but connection. When you were saying that, I mean, you, you sort of setting out to make a connection
[00:28:11] Ruby: and you practice it.
Yeah. Yeah. But that's,
[00:28:13] James: that's in a way that's part of yours. So, but other people
[00:28:17] Ruby: should try that, you know? Yeah. No, I think that's really good. Curious advice.
[00:28:20] James: Yeah, be curious. Try and make connection, show compassion. Well, that's very helpful advice. So I. When we went to Dubai all those years ago, Ruby, I've got this recollection of you sort of blagging your way into the presidential suite of the Burj Al Khalifa.
And you've got this talent for sort of opening doors, connecting with people. You've talked a little bit about it, you know, chatting to people on the way here and the guy in the cab who drove you. What, what, how do you do that? Because I think a lot of people, a lot of people in business. You want to make the sale, want to build a relationship, want to sort of get out on the front foot and get known.
I mean, you've been brilliant at this in your career. Any tips for [00:29:00] people?
[00:29:01] Ruby: Well, again, read your, read, read your, what do you call it? Your, um, Read the piece of meat in front of you. You know, at first he was very That's very
[00:29:10] James: literal.
[00:29:12] Ruby: You know what I mean? He was very, um, self possessed, kind of blown out like a buzz light.
You're, you're not getting in here. That was his whole thing. So, I think we started to talk about what the job was. You're talking
[00:29:22] James: about the doorman at the Burj Khalifa. The doorman. Oh, no, the
[00:29:25] Ruby: manager. Really puffed up. Oh, the manager. Okay. He would never get in here and just, remember we started shooting around?
Yeah. Just, you know, how do you get the job? What's, you know, what's the job entail? Now he thinks, Oh, she's interested in me. That's all people want is to be interested. Didn't argue and say, how dare you just got interested in him. And then kind of saw that he may be a little bit gay. And then I dropped the bombshell.
Do you know, I write absolutely fabulous. We were in that room in two seconds, but if I hadn't seen that spark,
[00:29:55] James: I'd have to find another one.
[00:29:56] Ruby: I'd have to find another one,
[00:29:58] James: but
[00:29:58] Ruby: you know, soften him up. [00:30:00]
[00:30:00] James: So you're looking for I don't write it,
[00:30:01] Ruby: I help write it.
[00:30:02] James: Yeah, but you're looking for those I'm looking for the niche.
But you're looking for those connections all the time.
[00:30:06] Ruby: It's just scuttling in there. I mean, we might not have found it, but bingo, that was in.
[00:30:11] James: It was unforgettable. A tour of the presidential suite, I'll never forget it.
[00:30:15] Ruby: It was every color palette in the universe. Yeah, it was incredible.
[00:30:18] James: It was extraordinary.
It made
[00:30:19] Ruby: Cleopatra's, you know, bathtub look like
[00:30:21] James: Yeah.
[00:30:22] Ruby: Yeah, a puddle
[00:30:23] James: like a sort of puritanical place.
[00:30:25] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:30:25] James: Yeah, that was interesting. So so frazzled cafe This is this is you founded frazzled cafe the charity Um, it started off you started I think having meetings where people would gather in mark's and spencer's Again,
[00:30:41] Ruby: I I was doing a talk because I talked to a lot of businesses that I my dream was to have Create community where people, I was basing it on AA, but because, um, where I love it, where people just speak from the heart and everybody.
Yeah. It's a great organization. Yeah. And then you have cigarettes and cookies. What more do you want? So, um, [00:31:00] I wanted that. And I said, I'm going to ask Starbucks. Well, they didn't like that. They said, why don't you use Marks and Spencer?
[00:31:05] James: They said that. Yeah.
[00:31:06] Ruby: And Marks
[00:31:07] James: and Spencer, they bought a good idea.
[00:31:09] Ruby: Did they?
Yeah. They said, why are you going to Starbucks? So take our
[00:31:14] James: cafes. Yeah.
[00:31:14] Ruby: But You know, play it that way, like, I don't need you,
[00:31:18] James: you know,
[00:31:18] Ruby: never look desperate.
[00:31:19] James: No, quite.
[00:31:20] Ruby: Yeah. Let people come to you. That's another thing.
[00:31:23] James: Right.
[00:31:24] Ruby: Rickman taught me that. Uh, don't go to, don't get that excited puppy dog. Look.
[00:31:29] James: So you got into Marks and Spencers and you, so what people would come to the cafe and Marks and Spencers?
[00:31:34] Ruby: Well, we'd, um, we'd invite people and we'd, we'd check out, you know, what they're. condition was. We, we're not therapists. We don't take on people in the midst of a depression or, you know, whatever. We tell you where to get help if you do come to us. And there'd be about 12 to 15 people and they'd come in all terrified, you know, scared, after the shop shut.
And then by the end of the meeting, because people felt heard, they felt cared [00:32:00] for, they'd walk out like kind of this charm bracelet of compassion. And some of them are still friends. So we created community up and down the country and then because of COVID, we had to go online and I run it now every two weeks, but every time I think, why am I doing this?
And every time I finish one, I know why it's probably what people got in church or what they got in the old town hall or the Quakers. Is it because everybody's so giving and they're so listening. When do you get people's total focus? Um, it, it, yeah. Again, you get a hit that you could carry with you.
People were saying, you know, even when I'm not on here, I know it's here. But whatever you have to do to make people's hearts. as much as their brains.
[00:32:44] James: What are the sort of characteristics of someone who is frazzled? What, what, what do you see?
[00:32:50] Ruby: I think they know, I think they know, but they avoid because it's so shaming because we're supposed to have a stiff, stiff upper lip and get on with it.[00:33:00]
But it's where there's a red mist in your head and you can't think clearly where, um, everything is. You know, we're not supposed to multitask, unless it's an emergency, but not constantly. And to learn when to, what's your tipping point. And that's what I do in a lot of businesses. You know, not everybody can work 48 hours a day, have 13 kids, make a muffin and jog at 2 in the morning.
Not everybody, you know, maybe some people were born for it. So, at a certain point, you're not, you're not productive anymore. So, what do you do when you hit that point? And you have choices. You have choices. I mean, I, again, let's call it brain fitness or mental fitness. You can think that way. You can excuse yourself because if you know you're frazzled and you're going in a meeting, you're going to lock antlers, just like animals, and you're not going to get anywhere.
I wish companies would just raise a white flag and go, I can't do this now, see you in five minutes. But it's [00:34:00] recognizing, I also describe in great detail what stress is. What, you know, how it affects them, where it comes from, the nature of it, the good news, why we're supposed to have The real fact is four thoughts are negative out of five.
You know, because we needed to know quickly what's dangerous, what isn't. So, forgive yourself on that one. But we do live in a culture now that's very ill. It's very ill. We need to know more and more about Who's in trouble? We need to see more details on the news. That can become addictive. So if you can cut your addictions down around work, you have more chance of having space in your brain when you get to work.
[00:34:36] James: Four thoughts out of five are negative.
[00:34:38] Ruby: Yeah. Somebody said we're Teflon for positive thoughts and Velcro for negative ones. And again, this is, I talk a lot about evolution, we needed certain things. We needed to understand how to distinguish what's a snake, what's a stick. So some things are left over from the past, they work for us.
So we should, I try to explain [00:35:00] what comes with the human package.
[00:35:02] James: Right. And
[00:35:02] Ruby: why suddenly we're in a culture where we're not supposed to be flawed. We're totally flawed. We, you know, we're part reptile, part mammal, part human. So they're always fighting against each other.
[00:35:14] James: Yeah, I think it's helpful to think we're totally flawed as a starting point.
Totally flawed. Lowest expectations, personally for me at least, and then you progress from there. And
[00:35:24] Ruby: what is our, you know, we're at war with ourselves, otherwise we project war onto the world.
[00:35:30] James: And you said the culture's sick. I mean, what do you see in organizations? I know you work with organizations where you're trying to help people with mindfulness and managing their relationships at work.
[00:35:40] Ruby: Um, it's not just mindfulness, it's understanding, um, that You, you have to, the authenticity, the understanding how to manage yourself and then manage other people. You know, what we're talking about, neural Wi Fi, what state are you in? A parent can't teach their kids unless they're the one, they walk the [00:36:00] talk.
[00:36:00] James: Yes.
[00:36:00] Ruby: So somehow, again, if you, if you don't want to do this, um, mental fitness, community will take care of it too, because we, um, We, as I said before, we create each other's states, so the manager should understand how they come to work is going to zip out and everybody's going to catch it like a virus. So do something about it.
Either state your case or walk out of the room or say, listen, I'll be back in five minutes. I know, I don't know where I parked my car. You know, I, I'm frazzled. Just say the word, get a t shirt. I'm frazzled. That's so, that'll defrazzle you.
[00:36:41] James: Right. Just
[00:36:41] Ruby: say it.
[00:36:43] James: Do you sell those on your website? No,
[00:36:45] Ruby: but I should.
You should. Yeah. I was just thinking that. I'm frazzled. We
[00:36:48] James: should get some t shirts. I'm frazzled. Okay, so I run a business, Ruby, and, and um, many people listening will be managers and business leaders. Where do you start if you feel your workforce, maybe, [00:37:00] as you're saying, we all are frazzled. Yeah. What are the, what are the things we need to be thinking about and putting in place to improve that for people, improve people's experience at work?
And more generally?
[00:37:12] Ruby: Yeah, a lot of, well, they call me in when there's a, a, you know, there's gonna be great change 'cause people are afraid of that. Um, I think again, it's about explaining that everything's in constant change. Uncertainty is part of our, our nature. But again, if you're the manager, you've gotta really look into yourself.
You can't heal a company unless whoever's in charge understands what they're bringing to the table. Then you can fix everybody. But be the example.
[00:37:44] James: Starts at the top.
[00:37:45] Ruby: Starts at the top. It'll start at the bottom if they're going to revolt.
[00:37:49] James: But
[00:37:49] Ruby: otherwise start at the top. All good
[00:37:51] James: revolutions. So yeah, so if you want to have a happy shit, you've got to be in good shape yourself.
[00:37:58] Ruby: You've got to be in good shape and [00:38:00] find out what's up, you know, what's true to you. How much can you tell them about yourself? I worked at Deutsche Bank and there were people throwing up in the bathroom. I mean literally it was covered. But the head of um, Barclays said he had depression and watch this space.
There was such compassion,
[00:38:16] James: right?
[00:38:17] Ruby: So it's the CEO's set different examples,
[00:38:21] James: right? That's interesting so Yeah, so that so what you're saying actually for people managers or people in businesses. You've got to work on yourself You'll make sure you're mentally fit. Yeah
[00:38:34] Ruby: And that you're tuned in to other people.
You're
[00:38:36] James: tuned in, that you're connected, that you're part of a community, that you're creating a community.
[00:38:42] Ruby: Give them something, you know, as I said, Unilever have, have meetings. Where they, um, find out what the different managers are interested in. Genuinely interested in. And maybe that could spread to who their employees are.
[00:38:55] James: Yeah.
[00:38:55] Ruby: And say, are you really interested in this? You know, just take it a step further. [00:39:00]
[00:39:00] James: Yeah.
[00:39:00] Ruby: Genuinely, are you interested? Did anything happen in your life to make you interested?
[00:39:05] James: So now you've continued it online, haven't you? Yeah. Have you gone back to Marks and Spencer's?
[00:39:10] Ruby: No, no, it's online and we're starting to open in.
[00:39:14] James: And more people can join. A great thing about digital is that you can make it bigger. And we
[00:39:18] Ruby: have more facilitators and we're open on
[00:39:21] James: Yeah, so how do people access that if they go on
[00:39:23] Ruby: frazzlecafe. org and you go straight in, it's free, and you're anonymous, and there's breakout groups, and people have formed communities outside of it, and so there's, I don't know how to do that.
[00:39:37] James: But they can meet themselves somewhere. They can meet themselves and they have travel. You should have frazzled chapters Yeah, there are but i'm not in
[00:39:45] Ruby: charge. I let that's good.
[00:39:46] James: So it's become a has a life of its own
[00:39:48] Ruby: But we have regulars that come on and your heart just warms to them because i've it's like you've seen them through everything Right, you see them when they're the sun is out, you know, and they're hopeful and then you see them when they're [00:40:00] Dipping and you know,
[00:40:02] James: so you've got to know people really
[00:40:03] Ruby: really know people and in their Little corners and everybody cares and then coming out and finding a new life
[00:40:10] James: Yes
[00:40:11] Ruby: Somebody said, do you have?
We had somebody who was a multi person Heleni,
[00:40:17] James: and
[00:40:18] Ruby: said they were really worried. This isn't a, usually it's heavier. They were worried because only one of their personas smoked, and they were scared everybody else would start. But, one other time somebody said, I work for MI5, and I shouldn't really tell anybody, and I said, you just told everybody.
[00:40:35] James: Stay
[00:40:35] Ruby: anonymous if you have to. But some people have, you know, they have cancer. They're worried. They work for the National Health. They're burned out. They feel guilty that they should be complaining. But then once they speak it, and everybody nods their head, you can see the relief. Air being let out of a tire.
So I hope it stays as long as it can. Well, I hope so too.
[00:40:57] James: It's brilliant. And, but what, [00:41:00] listening, you've talked about creating community again, with the Frazzle Cafe, you talked about it in businesses, and you've talked about the importance of really listening to people, or, you know, how people don't feel they listen to enough.
And those are, those are two things I think organizations can do a lot better potentially. You know, as a business leader, you know, if you're thinking about your teams, you know, how do you bring people together so they can really give expression to what they're feeling? Face to face, you have to go and see people.
[00:41:29] Ruby: Yeah, or meet, have a little meeting somewhere.
[00:41:31] James: Yeah, yeah. You
[00:41:31] Ruby: know, little group, just go around and first they'll go, what's this about? And I work for Unilever, and they said we're really scared if we find out about each other that we'll hold it against each other. Humans are much more compassionate, and they want to bond, and so once we did it, there was like a, it was like a, you know, dynamite being set up.
[00:41:49] James: Right, so people were worried about sharing stuff, but then when they started it, they realized.
[00:41:53] Ruby: It's magnificent. I mean, the President's Club do that.
[00:41:56] James: Yeah, yeah, they do. The
[00:41:57] Ruby: Young President's Club. Yeah,
[00:41:58] James: they're good at
[00:41:59] Ruby: that. Yeah, [00:42:00] they get together and they speak.
[00:42:02] James: Yeah, that's for people listening. The Young Presidents Organizations for entrepreneurs and business leaders who come together because They're often isolated, I suppose.
Yeah. You don't want to tell your colleagues that you don't know what you're doing. So you can tell someone else in the safety of a meeting that's confidential.
[00:42:18] Ruby: Yeah, well, you have to make it confidential. Yeah,
[00:42:21] James: confidentiality is very important. Once somebody
[00:42:23] Ruby: says, I don't know what I'm doing, and the next person says, I don't either.
Watch that space. They know exactly what they're doing. It's like, I'm always scared. I'm really stupid. You got to be smart to be say you're stupid,
[00:42:34] James: right?
[00:42:35] Ruby: It's self awareness. That's the way to be
[00:42:37] James: smart to say is stupid. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we don't know everything for sure. We're all stupid in a sense.
Yeah.
[00:42:44] Ruby: I mean, everybody's responsible for their corner. So somebody will find their corner. But if they're trying to be everything to everyone, like Rickman said, you burn out, find out your voice.
[00:42:56] James: Yeah no i was lucky enough to go to harvard business school years and years ago [00:43:00] and on the last day of the last course our best professor said 50 of what you've learned here will be wrong and we don't know what 50 it is oh wow and that was the best lesson.
Because you left thinking, I don't know, I don't know anything, potentially, I've got to stay curious. And, you know, you might think you're right, but you could be wrong. And I've found that very helpful over the years. I'm often wrong. And it's finding that out. But that's
[00:43:24] Ruby: so flexible, you know, that's a flexible brain.
When you're rigid, like my dad was, or like Trump was.
[00:43:30] James: Oh yes, we want to talk about Trump. You're a
[00:43:32] Ruby: psychopath. Or a sociopath, at least. I think a neurotic thinks they see God, but a psychopath believes that he's God.
[00:43:40] James: Right. Okay. So, on the subject of President Trump, you did a program about him very early on in his career, long before his political career began.
Um, and, uh, tell me a bit about that, because didn't he offer you a lift in his plane or something? What was the [00:44:00] story about?
[00:44:02] Ruby: Well, my makeup artist had to do his hair and he had very little hair that was like one. Right, not
[00:44:06] James: like now then.
[00:44:07] Ruby: No, now it's the full, you know, dead roadkill. But it was like one little hair and she had to wind it like a Mr.
Whippy on his head and then paint him orange. And then, um, at first he liked me because I'm female. But then he, um, I asked the stupidest question. He said he wanted to be the next president of the United States and I started laughing.
[00:44:25] James: He said this?
[00:44:26] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:44:27] James: I thought, I
[00:44:27] Ruby: thought it's a good opener. Like, he's been funny.
How long ago was this
[00:44:30] James: interview? Was
[00:44:31] Ruby: it twice now? Yeah.
[00:44:34] James: When was it? Can you remember?
[00:44:36] Ruby: No.
[00:44:37] James: No. But before, obviously. Before. Maybe 15
[00:44:41] Ruby: years ago.
[00:44:41] James: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:42] Ruby: But
[00:44:44] James: he
[00:44:44] Ruby: knows how to create, evoke terror. And that's another way of doing business. If you're so terror, terrorized. You know, know how to terrorize people will do what you want, right?
But watch this space they'll do what he wants because you assume this is leadership
[00:44:58] James: Yeah,
[00:44:59] Ruby: you know cuz we're [00:45:00] still a little seeped in
[00:45:01] James: how do you evoke terror?
[00:45:04] Ruby: He's he's terrifying I don't have to do with me, but I started asking personal questions This is what it backfires,
[00:45:10] James: right and
[00:45:11] Ruby: they don't want to know so if you've got a boss who's a terrorist back off Just do what you don't put your head down and get the money
[00:45:18] James: Right, but I'll get another job.
I'll get another job go to read. co. uk help you find something better
[00:45:25] Ruby: There we go. I got you in there When somebody treats you like an idiot, which he did, I became an idiot. So if you talk down to somebody, which he was, I, I, I started, I couldn't really finish my sentences. And eventually he created the idiot, and I helped him create the idiot that he thought I was.
So he said, that's it, I've had enough. And he left me in a plane and said, land it. We were at 33, 000 feet, so they landed the plane. It's a private jet. When he was going to
[00:45:51] James: be taking you somewhere.
[00:45:53] Ruby: No, just dropping us off.
[00:45:55] James: Oh, he just dropped you off somewhere?
[00:45:56] Ruby: In Arkansas. The whole show is us trying to find Trump again.
And it [00:46:00] became hilarious.
[00:46:00] James: Right.
[00:46:01] Ruby: We're crossing those states, you know, that
[00:46:03] James: So he just dumped you, you know. Just
[00:46:04] Ruby: dumped us in Arkansas.
[00:46:05] James: Right.
[00:46:06] Ruby: That's when the show took off, because we went to Branson. Right. You know, in places where, I don't want to say, but, you know, um, farm animal and humans aren't that different.
And so, uh, we went to a place where you use Saddam Hussein. As a, um, student gallery, there was a town that they created the fifties. So you
[00:46:26] James: were looking for him?
[00:46:28] Ruby: We were looking for him, but we went through like a town that was reminiscent of the fifties. They had the soda bar, they had two Siamese twins making toffee.
Everybody was dressed as the fifties.
[00:46:40] James: Right.
[00:46:40] Ruby: Clearly no people of any other origin. Um, and that's what middle, not middle.
[00:46:48] James: Yeah.
[00:46:49] Ruby: The Americans that voted for him are about. And I'd never seen that. So then we finally found him in Atlantic City and he was judging a beauty contest.
[00:46:58] James: Oh, right. And
[00:46:58] Ruby: there were all these people [00:47:00] begging for him to sign their books and to get in the millionaires club you have to give a million.
Right. These people had, they weren't rich. Right. And they're asking him to sign the book. So he screwed them and then he's still selling the book. So we're very confused,
[00:47:15] James: right?
[00:47:15] Ruby: We are. And I met Melania. She was a linger, a lingerie model, right? She said she really liked.
[00:47:23] James: All right. I'm not sure we should have this in the podcast, but
[00:47:27] Ruby: we'll see.
She loved him. Well, it's online.
[00:47:30] James: It's online. How great he was. Oh, is it? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then, um, I
[00:47:34] Ruby: said, made a joke. I said, I'm, I'm standing really close to her and I could hear the ocean.
[00:47:41] James: So, so, so then. Then
[00:47:44] Ruby: I met him again. Yeah. And then I was wondering what happened then. Roger Stone said she's okay.
Right. Because I got in a, Limo with him and the sound was not and he told me what he likes to do with women and what he thinks of women
[00:47:55] James: And
[00:47:56] Ruby: I'd say I could have hung him, but that would have made him even more popular [00:48:00] And he thought he kind of crude me out, but I crude it him out even more again I'll play it your own game.
And so you could see them going. Oh, she isn't some, you know Female trying to get in my pants. She's really a male This is a game you can play to a lot of men that don't like women or they think they're just there to have sex with. I can turn myself into a male and then get them. So, Roger Stone said, she's, she's much cooler than you think she is.
And so the whole show ends with his arm around me.
[00:48:30] James: All right.
[00:48:30] Ruby: So I kind of,
[00:48:31] James: so can we watch this show somewhere? Where is it?
[00:48:33] Ruby: On YouTube. On YouTube. You remember something
[00:48:36] James: called YouTube? I do remember YouTube. How archaic
[00:48:39] Ruby: are you?
[00:48:39] James: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I shouldn't have given myself away as such a dinosaur Ruby.
YouTube. That's where I'll go. So it's still there. I'll definitely watch it. And you haven't seen the new movie, The Apprentice. I
[00:48:50] Ruby: did. Oh, you have. So what did you think of that? I think it's fantastic. I mean, it's probably not accurate. But it's fantastic. But he had a
[00:48:56] James: mentor. That's what that film's about, isn't it?
There's a mentor in New [00:49:00] York, he had a mentor
[00:49:00] Ruby: who was a killer.
[00:49:01] James: Yeah,
[00:49:01] Ruby: yeah. He taught him to be a killer. But you know, like he says, you have to be born with it.
[00:49:06] James: Right, right.
[00:49:07] Ruby: Do you know what I mean by a female turning herself into a male and a male can turn himself into more female qualities? Well, this is an
[00:49:13] James: interesting, yeah, let's talk about that.
So, yeah. So how'd you do that? Well, how'd you turn yourself into a male?
[00:49:19] Ruby: I, it's not really male, but I can cut out this, I can cut out the, the, the kind of. Who's conquering who, you know, or, um, and just, it's a sense of humor that does it too. When I worked on Girls on Top, men thought women were idiots. I mean, you know, it was, I don't know how many years ago.
But we were funnier about women than they could ever be. So it stopped them in their tracks. You know, if you can see the humor about how they see you, it stops them in their tracks.
[00:49:49] James: Yes.
[00:49:50] Ruby: And a male who can turn on, you know, that kind of compassionate listening thing, even if it, you know, is not gay, immediately the woman will respond to that, because we're both male and [00:50:00] female.
[00:50:00] James: Yes.
[00:50:00] Ruby: But when a woman used to go on stage and talk about diversity in her high, six inch high heels and whine, I don't think it really worked.
[00:50:08] James: No, it doesn't land. No,
[00:50:09] Ruby: but if she comes out in flats and she says, you know, whatever, something that makes them laugh, something a little self deprecating, not too much, but just something like I've got how you see me.
[00:50:22] James: Yes.
[00:50:22] Ruby: Yeah. I've got
[00:50:24] James: how this is a real cause I've often thought if someone's rude. To me yeah, someone I love if I can turn it into a joke and make other people laugh. Yeah, I win That's how I like to try and deflect rudeness if I can because it you immediately win Don't you if you make the other people
[00:50:44] Ruby: or you say I know how you see me without saying that word.
[00:50:47] James: Yeah,
[00:50:48] Ruby: you know to Uh,
[00:50:51] James: So this is, this is sort of psychology that you're, you're, you're training us in. When I used
[00:50:56] Ruby: to interview
[00:50:58] James: [00:51:00] people,
[00:51:00] Ruby: I wanted to know their psychology. I wasn't interested in their celebrity. It was like a Rubik's cube that I was putting together. You know, I knew Bette Midler just wanted me to, um, she doesn't want to be admired.
She doesn't want me to go, I loved your last film. She wanted me to say, hey, I was a waitress too and I was probably better than you. She got a little competitive and said, I used to can, I used to, you know, get pineapples and I'd bang them, bang them, bang them and get them in. And I said, yeah, well, I stuffed chickens, you know, so it became, I got her on her level.
[00:51:29] James: Right. Go
[00:51:29] Ruby: to what they really are about and then play with them.
[00:51:32] James: Right. Yeah. But how do you find out what they're really about? And Burt
[00:51:34] Ruby: Reynolds really hated, well, I researched it.
[00:51:37] James: So you need to do your research. You
[00:51:38] Ruby: got, you need to do, you need to know what they are. So Burt
[00:51:40] James: Reynolds, you were about to say, what was it?
He hated
[00:51:41] Ruby: me for the, for the first while and then I realized he was an egomaniac and I was interrupting him too much. So I just let him, I let it rip and I laughed at everything he did and he became funny.
[00:51:53] James: Right.
[00:51:54] Ruby: You know, learn, do you shut up, or do you let him run, or do you flirt with them, or do you, uh, [00:52:00] stand back and kind of analyze with them.
What do they want?
[00:52:03] James: Right.
[00:52:04] Ruby: But be authentic to yourself. I mean, you know, you can't fake it completely, but you've got to learn that I hate the guy, he's fucking up my He's screwing up my show. Um, this is a waste of time. 8 hours went by. I was showing off. I put on cowboy uniforms because he had his own shop at Burt Reynolds Land.
And then I thought he's not, he's not responding to me. I'm like a little Irritating thing. So I shut up.
[00:52:30] James: Yes. Yeah. And let him sort of,
[00:52:32] Ruby: let him shine.
[00:52:33] James: Shine .
[00:52:34] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:52:34] James: So, so giving people a space to sort of, I mean, that, that, that,
[00:52:38] Ruby: or they wanna be cajoled. Yeah. Or they want you to be, you know, learn what do they want and don't give up, you know?
So the question
[00:52:45] James: is what do they want in a sense? What do they want? That's what you're asking yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's very interesting. But you can
[00:52:54] Ruby: only read that when you've got space in your mind. You know, if you're too clogged up with, I hope I get this job. I [00:53:00] hope this person likes me.
The red mist will stop you from thinking creatively.
[00:53:04] James: But you just said, if I hope I can get this job in a job interview, it's all about what they want, you know, as a job is a problem to be solved, I've always said, so when you're going for a job interview, you've got to try and understand what does this person sit on the other side of the table.
What do they want? I mean, what are they trying to fix or solve and how can I help them do that? And so many people I think go into job interviews thinking what's in it for me or how can I earn more money? And by switching it to what do they want and really understanding that, they give themselves a much better chance of getting the job, in my view.
So that's exactly the same
[00:53:38] Ruby: as
[00:53:39] James: what you're talking about in terms of the interviews you were doing.
[00:53:42] Ruby: But you can only play if you lower your cortisol.
[00:53:45] James: Right. Fear
[00:53:45] Ruby: keeps you. And this is where. So how do you
[00:53:48] James: get rid of fear? Well, I
[00:53:49] Ruby: told you, you know, it's something like mindfulness. You know, some people, it's got to be something you practice.
You can't. Preparation
[00:53:57] James: though as well. Yeah.
[00:53:58] Ruby: You can't just, you know, jump out [00:54:00] of the plane and expect the rip cord to work the first time. So do mindfulness or, or like you said,
[00:54:08] James: yeah, preparation, no
[00:54:09] Ruby: training or
[00:54:09] James: training.
[00:54:11] Ruby: You know, you said. Mental training. Oh,
[00:54:13] James: mental fitness. Mental fitness. Mental fitness, I think it's really good.
I
[00:54:15] Ruby: mean, read about it. If you, I have the money to see a good shrink, go see a shrink. Go do CBT where you learn what you're, it's exactly like mindfulness. You learn these are your default. This is comes up no matter what you're in. If you're with your friend, you still think, Oh my God, why didn't she call me?
Does she like me? Then it happens at a job interview, you realize those are just habits. They're not real. They're just habits.
[00:54:39] James: So I was thinking about, you know, the beginning of our conversation. I said, you've been in all these different businesses, but the psychology is what connects them all, isn't it?
That's my real interest. That's what it says, your real interest. That's what you're really about. Yeah. Whether it was making people laugh or helping with mindfulness or training people in business. So you're really interested in people.
[00:54:59] Ruby: [00:55:00] Yeah. And I think that could be trained.
[00:55:02] James: Yeah.
[00:55:02] Ruby: You know, come out from behind the suits.
Nobody likes a suit anymore.
[00:55:07] James: But that's the key to your success as well, isn't it? Your interest in other people.
[00:55:13] Ruby: Um, I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, you know, that's my gift in the second half of the show or when I run frazzled, I do the show, I do the, you know, I'm tap dancing and showing them what I'm about.
And in the second half, after the interval, they let me know what they're about. And the vibe in that room is fantastic. Again, it's maybe what church was about.
[00:55:34] James: Yes. So you've said that more than once, a lot of these people are looking for something that's been lost, perhaps in their communities. Yeah.
Because some of these sort of. Well,
[00:55:43] Ruby: we're lonely. That's our biggest illness now.
[00:55:45] James: We're lonely.
[00:55:46] Ruby: Yeah. And that's, people just want to connect in business and they spend more time doing business than they do with their family. So they might as well love their work.
[00:55:55] James: Well, I think it's really important to love your work.
And if you don't find another job, that's why we talk about love [00:56:00] Mondays. But there's, and I think it's made more difficult by working from home perhaps. I think that's made people more disconnected. I mean, I know we're trying to encourage people to sort of reconnect, but lots of people like working from home.
[00:56:12] Ruby: Well, that I don't understand.
[00:56:14] James: You don't understand?
[00:56:15] Ruby: No. Because where's your community? You know, on Zoom? Yeah, I'd want to get out there.
[00:56:21] James: Yeah, I think sort of, it's at our peril that we devalue the community. And we should be seeking community and seeking to create community where we can. That's a big part of your message.
[00:56:32] Ruby: Yeah, and you know, the manager should try and create it. Even if they meet for, you know, a minute before work or a minute after, just to say what's been going on.
[00:56:41] James: Yes. And
[00:56:42] Ruby: it'll become more and more honest.
[00:56:44] James: Yes. No, that's a good because
[00:56:47] Ruby: it has to be as important as just making the cash.
[00:56:49] James: That's a good shout.
I've got two questions that I always ask at the end, which, um, I'll ask you now, [00:57:00] but the first is what gets you up on a Monday morning in my,
[00:57:04] Ruby: I don't know any different, you know, every day is a different day for me. So I don't, I don't go to an office. So I wouldn't know
[00:57:12] James: you wouldn't know there's a Monday.
[00:57:13] Ruby: No, I don't know when I don't know what day it is today
[00:57:16] James: Fantastic.
[00:57:17] Ruby: Yeah
Well, tell me where I'm going it
[00:57:22] James: could be like Slavia does it matter what day am I doing a
[00:57:25] Ruby: show? I don't care. Just tell me where I'm going
[00:57:28] James: Well, I think it's fair to say to Those listening that you got here before me, suddenly got up and got going. Tell me where
[00:57:35] Ruby: to go.
[00:57:35] James: Yeah. So tell me where to go. That's what gets it going on Monday morning.
And the second question is in my interview. Well, it's
[00:57:41] Ruby: novelty and I'm lucky enough that I can improvise my life.
[00:57:44] James: Yeah.
[00:57:45] Ruby: I don't have a set routine. So that's difficult and that's an advantage. Yes. You know, cause everything's a surprise. You
[00:57:52] James: can improvise your life.
[00:57:54] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:57:54] James: Novelty. I like that.
[00:57:55] Ruby: Novelty.
[00:57:56] James: Yeah.
Yeah, that is a privilege in a way.
[00:57:59] Ruby: In a [00:58:00] way.
[00:58:00] James: Yeah. Some people don't want that at all.
[00:58:02] Ruby: No, they want routine.
[00:58:03] James: They want routine. I'm with you. I like novelty. Yeah. But it's sometimes it can be quite challenging and difficult. Oh yeah. I mean, I'm
[00:58:11] Ruby: between things now. You know, I've just done my show. I'm doing it in Australia, New Zealand.
That I'm teaching mindfulness, um, that in February and at Broughton Hall and then, um, and then I don't know.
[00:58:24] James: Yes,
[00:58:24] Ruby: and so the fear levels are way up, but when I figure it out, it'll be worth the reward Rather than just repeat the old stuff.
[00:58:32] James: Exactly. Exactly. Well that leads nicely into my last question Which is where do you see yourself in five years time, which might be difficult to answer given what you just said, but
[00:58:41] Ruby: more not
[00:58:42] James: maybe I
[00:58:45] Ruby: Don't want to repeat what I've done But I think I want to write a book about how to find wisdom because that's never discussed or sold at Harvey Nichols
[00:58:54] James: Excellent.
How to find wisdom. Well, I hope one day to read that. Yeah. Thank you very much. I [00:59:00] hope you find it. Thanks. Very good. I'd love to read that. How to find wisdom. to Ruby for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about employee wellbeing or Ruby, visit rubywax. net. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, subscribe and comment.
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